Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[LemonHaze]

Making a game with a budget north of $7M is like winning the lottery and almost any developer would kill for the opportunity. A Hat in Time was Kickstarted for $300k with a team of 5 guys and managed to be almost as good as Mario. Also, porting a UE4 game to PS4 and Xbox is not especially expensive.

I'm sorry, but you must be trolling. The expensive aspect isn't necessarily the actual porting of any code (if any nowadays since a lot of studios use blueprints quite a lot, especially indie developers). It's more putting your title through submission processes at Sony or Microsoft. Also, A Hat in Time is nothing on the scale of Shenmue, surely you yourself can see that? Shenmue is a series which tends to have a lot of simulation, such as scheduled NPCs, weather, character development etc.

It is not cheap to do any of this, especially when you consider the amount of content there actually is. A game of Mario is nothing in comparison, very simple logic.

 

[Sh3ppy]

Uh oh, busted!

 

[LemonHaze]

Just the voice acting alone is quite a large chunk of the budget, too. Something which is almost unavoidable, unless you somehow magically find voice actors wanting to work for literally nothing, which to be honest, isn't right and no matter how wanting they are to help for no money, should be paid regardless.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Just the voice acting alone is quite a large chunk of the budget, too. Something which is almost unavoidable, unless you somehow magically find voice actors wanting to work for literally nothing, which to be honest, isn't right and no matter how wanting they are to help for no money, should be paid regardless.

TWO dubs. Craziness.

 

[高野和泉]

Sega will have no interest in working with someone who's made a name for himself of not keeping within the budget limits...

To be fair...he was approached & handed that blank check. And Yu has openly stated that he has never operated at a loss for Sega since all expenses for shenmue 1&2 has been recovered through subsidizing his other works/IPs. Hence the respect and relationship he has with Sega after he had retired is still strong. And once in a while he still gets consultant/advisory requests from Sega as they still do acknowledge his talent/accomplishments.

Yu Suzuki: "Development budget of Shenmue was easily recouped by profits of VF3 & 4"

Sort of an old interview, given that it happened back in January, but given the newfound attention heaped on the series, here's another nugget on one of the most discussed aspects of the infamous Shenmue budget...

www.neogaf.com

So Sega taking on Shenmue to redeem themselves and let YS do his magic would not be a far-fetch requests. I'd even go one step farther and suggest that at one point Sega did a stupid move for not taking a chance on S3 since It'd still be a better investment than the AAA dumpster fire they took on A:CM. Having to redeem themselves by taking the license internally and get Creative assembly to fix the reputational mess with the amazing A:ISO.

Another point, is that Sega is no longer restricted by hardware so, with many platform channels to promote+exposure Shenmue can reach every gaming audiences and maximized the fandom converts/support.

On another note, I think the black box of middle-wares has some role/effect on the production quality as well. The time/resources to figure out all the logistics just wasn't favorable to YS net's new recruits and Yu's game-plans. Shenmue 1&2 was able to be tweaked & polished to the minutiae since Am2 had personally designed a custom F.R.E.E. engine along side Yu having many years of experience with the engine's previous iterations(w/VF) before work on Shenmue began.

 

[iknifaugood]

A game of Mario is nothing in comparison, very simple logic.

And you're suggesting I'm trolling? Making a game like Mario is orders of magnitude more difficult than a game where the player can run around pressing interact on things and occasionally get into fights. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you how the number of things that can break is infinitely higher in Mario than Shenmue.

(EDIT)

Also, A Hat in Time is nothing on the scale of Shenmue, surely you yourself can see that?

Compared to the series as a whole? No. But A Hat in Time is in nearly every respect a bigger game than Shenmue 3.

The expensive aspect isn't necessarily the actual porting of any code (if any nowadays since a lot of studios use blueprints quite a lot, especially indie developers). It's more putting your title through submission processes at Sony or Microsoft.

I've actually gone through the process. Again, if you have $7M, it's not expensive to submit your game to those consoles (a couple hundred thousand); most of a budget that size gets spent on development (since clearly very little was spent on marketing).

Shenmue is a series which tends to have a lot of simulation, such as scheduled NPCs, weather,

Shenmue has almost no simulation to speak of: weather and NPC schedules are scripted and don't even interact in any meaningful ways. Compare that to a game like Breath of the Wild where the simulations are dynamic and affect things like AI, player movement, physics etc. The things that make Shenmue expensive are the same things that make Quantic Dream or Supermassive games expensive: high fidelity graphics, detailed environments, cutscenes, animations, voice acting etc. The only thing in terms of Shenmue's gameplay that adds any real cost is the kind of complex fighting system we saw in S1 and 2.

character development etc.

What do you mean by this?

TWO dubs. Craziness.

Some might even call it "wasteful".

 

[Dietsoap]

Making a game like Mario is orders of magnitude more difficult than a game where the player can run around pressing interact on things and occasionally get into fights. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you how the number of things that can break is infinitely higher in Mario than Shenmue.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I mean, I'm a game developer for almost 20 years now xD

You're on a higher level

In seriousness (), they're the only ones left that HAVEN'T said their piece yet; the mods/admins/long-time guys have all offered their opinion, save for them two.

Though, IIRC, Duck did have a bit of an opinion after launch and he wasn't happy, but I may be, "misremembering."

True, didn't realize the comparison being made. Disregard.

Absolutely no problem at all :)

 

[mjqjazzbar]

And you're suggesting I'm trolling? Making a game like Mario is orders of magnitude more difficult than a game where the player can run around pressing interact on things and occasionally get into fights. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you how the number of things that can break is infinitely higher in Mario than Shenmue.

(EDIT)

Compared to the series as a whole? No. But A Hat in Time is in nearly every respect a bigger game than Shenmue 3.


I've actually gone through the process. Again, if you have $7M, it's not expensive to submit your game to those consoles (a couple hundred thousand); most of a budget that size gets spent on development (since clearly very little was spent on marketing).


Shenmue has almost no simulation to speak of: weather and NPC schedules are scripted and don't even interact in any meaningful ways. Compare that to a game like Breath of the Wild where the simulations are dynamic and affect things like AI, player movement, physics etc. The things that make Shenmue expensive are the same things that make Quantic Dream or Supermassive games expensive: high fidelity graphics, detailed environments, cutscenes, animations, voice acting etc. The only thing in terms of Shenmue's gameplay that adds any real cost is the kind of complex fighting system we saw in S1 and 2.


What do you mean by this?


Some might even call it "wasteful".

Trust me, I floated the idea of a single dub many months ago and was raked over the coals. Still think it's worth considering next time around... Hell, just do an English only dub for all I care. Just free up some resources.

 

[spud1897]

Trust me, I floated the idea of a single dub many months ago and was raked over the coals. Still think it's worth considering next time around...

I agree

 

[LemonHaze]

And you're suggesting I'm trolling? Making a game like Mario is orders of magnitude more difficult than a game where the player can run around pressing interact on things and occasionally get into fights. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you how the number of things that can break is infinitely higher in Mario than Shenmue.

You're 100% trolling if you can't figure out how to write simple jumping sequences and picking up items. Infinitely higher than Shenmue? You should back that up by explaining yourself, because you're making yourself look like a fool.

 

[LemonHaze]

Shenmue has almost no simulation to speak of: weather and NPC schedules are scripted and don't even interact in any meaningful ways.

That's where you're wrong. The majority of NPCs are scheduled, I've dumped and reversed quite a lot of the game already, so I would know.

 

[LemonHaze]

What do you mean by this?

Well Shenhua's conversations change depending on how much you talk to her etc and the points in time in which you do talk to her. It was told before release, in fact.

Some might even call it "wasteful".

Not really, it puts it on par with the rest of the games in the series. Stop trying to come up with reasons and look at facts.

 

[LemonHaze]

Imagine saying 'this isn't simulation' and also in the same sentence agreeing that NPCs (non-player characters) have a schedule.

Sounds like simulation to me.

 

[iknifaugood]

You're 100% trolling if you can't figure out how to write simple jumping sequences and picking up items. Infinitely higher than Shenmue? You should back that up by explaining yourself, because you're making yourself look like a fool.

I need to explain to you how Mario or A Hat in Time has more ways to interact with NPCs and the environment (and consequently break the game) than Shenmue? In those games your movement is governed by momentum and physics (which is already more complex than Ryo's movement), you can jump in several different ways, contextually interact with the environment, use items/powers that change the game world and introduce new mechanics, pick up and throw objects, enemies with actual AI and environmental navigation etc. Shenmue has one interact button!

That's where you're wrong. The majority of NPCs are scheduled, I've dumped and reversed quite a lot of the game already, so I would know.

Schedule =/= simulation and you should know the difference. Majora's Mask is the greatest simulation ever! /s

Well Shenhua's conversations change depending on how much you talk to her etc and the points in time in which you do talk to her. It was told before release, in fact.

Uhh... so what? You think it's easy to code Mario and consider this to be difficult?

Not really, it puts it on par with the rest of the games in the series.

About the only thing that's in line with the rest of the series...

Stop trying to come up with reasons and look at facts.

I have plenty of reasons to both dislike S3 and understand why it's not a fundamentally difficult game to make. It's expensive in terms of art assets but not programming or gameplay mechanics.

Imagine saying 'this isn't simulation' and also in the same sentence agreeing that NPCs (non-player characters) have a schedule.

Sounds like simulation to me.

Imagine being a developer who thinks that Shenmue is a more difficult game to make than Mario. No one has even been able to replicate the planet mechanics of Mario Galaxy because it's as close to black magic as a game has ever come but you're right, a game where you run around a city talking to people is way harder to make.

This is not to take anything away from Shenmue btw, it's just not that type of game.

 

[LemonHaze]

Mario doesn't even have feet smh. All Shenmue games need at least FABRIK for when you're walking up and down stairs

 

[shredingskin]

Well Shenhua's conversations change depending on how much you talk to her etc and the points in time in which you do talk to her. It was told before release, in fact.

As far as I know/saw the only thing that changes are the wake up and going out cutscenes.
Each type of game has their difficult stuff to program, I think the game was in development limbo for a while and tried to do too much, first we knew that the animation pipeline was all over the place and they got consistent rigging quite late in development, YS juggled with many ideas from the start (some made it, some not), even after getting the deal with DS YS was still adjusting the scope of the game.

IIRC doesn't costs "thousands" to deploy to consoles, you only need to have a registered company and be accepted (they don't even ask for a build of the game), they give you a key to compile and there's that (same way you need a key for google or the appstore).

 

[iknifaugood]

IIRC doesn't costs "thousands" to deploy to consoles, you only need to have a registered company and be accepted (they don't even ask for a build of the game), they give you a key to compile and there's that (same way you need a key for google or the appstore).

You have to integrate their API and follow certain rules pertaining to trophies/achievements as well as software updates. Since S3 was always bound for these consoles they would have known that and integrated it early into development. It costs money to submit your game to both marketplaces and keep it updated unless your company has a relationship with Sony or MS. There's very little testing that needs to be done because UE4 is super compatible with both systems.

 

[danielmann861]

Trust me, I floated the idea of a single dub many months ago and was raked over the coals. Still think it's worth considering next time around... Hell, just do an English only dub for all I care. Just free up some resources.

I'm actually with you on that. Save money on the English dub and go Japanese all the way. I know that's not a popular sentiment, but yeah, I'll say it. Not a fan of the English dub in III.

 

[LemonHaze]

I need to explain to you how Mario or A Hat in Time has more ways to interact with NPCs and the environment (and consequently break the game) than Shenmue? In those games your movement is governed by momentum and physics (which is already more complex than Ryo's movement), you can jump in several different ways, contextually interact with the environment, use items/powers that change the game world and introduce new mechanics, pick up and throw objects, enemies with actual AI and environmental navigation etc. Shenmue has one interact button!

Ah, the Interact button. One which has many uses. Either way, to address your first point comparing a 3D platformer and a 3D open world game set in the 80s in China:

Movement with velocity isn't really all that hard to achieve, you have set limits whereby you can be propelled in which ever direction you like. It is actually very simple. Something which has been done for many many years, even on old consoles which have constraints such as RAM or CPU cycles. It's really just as simple as that.

Shenmue in comparison uses inverse kinematics to ensure that all characters feet remain planted on the ground. Inherently due to the number of NPCs in both Bailu and Niaowu, compared to your example, this is more computationally expensive. Especially considering the higher poly count and shader instructions, across all instances.

You say actual AI, but I'm afraid I don't really know if you understand it, nevermind myself. The schedules present in Shenmue III, I'd say most certainly pass as simulation as far as the previous games are concerned. All NPCs have one and they are all unique and some of them have a certain degree of variance to them.

Take Shenhua as well for example, who develops the more you interact with her. All NPCs also have fairly decent pathfinding.
Your example is a 3D platformer with very little story, or at least not a story from more than 20 years ago, it is also not set in the real world, where there are functioning markets and a gambling setup.

Story is a very relevant point here. Every voice you hear has been cast for this game specifically and therefore has been paid as such, each line of text and dialogue has been translated and localized and audio has been designed, written and recorded, levels and models have been designed, modeled, textured and optionally animated.

All of these things cost real money which you as a developer would know and most certainly more than $500k which you've thrown around multiple times.

IIRC doesn't costs "thousands" to deploy to consoles, you only need to have a registered company and be accepted (they don't even ask for a build of the game), they give you a key to compile and there's that (same way you need a key for google or the appstore).

We're talking about testing and submitting a story-driven title with many moving parts. Not to mention, you have to pay for pressing physical discs. Of course they ask for builds when you are submitting a title.