Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

iknifaugood said:
When did I say that? It's harder to make A Hat in Time than it is to make Shenmue 3 from a design, programming, and testing perspective.
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Haven't played a hat in time, but S3 had to juggle many stuff, autolipsync, fighting, tons of minigames, probably hundreds of quest state flags (just testing that must be a pain it has hundreds of interactable characters), thousands of animations, time of day (still don't know if it's switching GI maps, probes or just direct lighting, something to ask the devs).
 
iknifaugood said:
You definitely don't know what a simulation is.
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Of course I do. It is the imitation of a process. Exactly what schedule NPCs do in Shenmue III, you can take the classes if you want. I could even spend time to explain the logic with you.

iknifaugood said:
There's no "agreeing" in this particular argument. I'm right and he's wrong, but I'll stop now.
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No, you're not. Comparing Mario/A Hat in Time to Shenmue is nonsensical. Completely pointless and irrelevant.
 
You also have to remember they're hiring employees in one of the most expensive markets in the world. Starting up a new studio isn't easy. Look at where most of Yu Suzuki's peers from the '80s and '90s are these days--nowhere. You can't compare a tiny indie studio to what's happening at Ys Net. For one, Suzuki is working on an established franchise and needs to skate around quite a few issues and deal with many different license holders, etc.
 
iknifaugood said:
You're arguing that a heavily scripted adventure game with one interact button is harder to make than fucking Mario and I'm insane. Cool. Try expressing that opinion to literally anyone who has ever made a game before. Maybe after that you can explain to them why L.A. Noire is so much harder to make than Breath of the Wild.
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I have made games before, even before the broad usage of UE3 back in the day. I know what I'm talking about. You can't really compare these 2 games in such a way, and any developer, hell any logical human being would understand that.
 
mjqjazzbar said:
You also have to remember they're hiring employees in one of the most expensive markets in the world. Starting up a new studio isn't easy. Look at where most of Yu Suzuki's peers from the '80s and '90s are these days--nowhere. You can't compare a tiny indie studio to what's happening at Ys Net. For one, Suzuki is working on an established franchise and needs to skate around quite a few issues and deal with many different license holders, etc.
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This is pretty much exactly it. It's one thing to implement mechanics etc, but another to make it seemingly all blend in together.
 
Just so we're all clear, it wasn't me that likened any of this to Mario in anyway...

iknifaugood said:
(EDIT) As a UE4 developer, I resent the suggestion that Yu Suzuki had "little" to work with. Amazing games have been made with far less and Suzuki was given millions of dollars by fans who were waiting 20 years for him to continue the series; he was unbelievably lucky to be given that opportunity.
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iknifaugood said:
Making a game with a budget north of $7M is like winning the lottery and almost any developer would kill for the opportunity. A Hat in Time was Kickstarted for $300k with a team of 5 guys and managed to be almost as good as Mario. Also, porting a UE4 game to PS4 and Xbox is not especially expensive.
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shredingskin said:
Haven't played a hat in time, but S3 had to juggle many stuff, autolipsync, fighting, tons of minigames, probably hundreds of quest state flags (just testing that must be a pain it has hundreds of interactable characters), thousands of animations, time of day (still don't know if it's switching GI maps, probes or just direct lighting, something to ask the devs).
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S3 has some stuff under the hood for sure, but it's all relatively simple stuff, just semi-scaled up. Nothing overly impressive considering its budget. My initial point was that I don't like saying that Suzuki had "very little to work with" considering what devs have achieved with far less, and I used A Hat in Time as an example.

mjqjazzbar said:
You also have to remember they're hiring employees in one of the most expensive markets in the world. Starting up a new studio isn't easy. Look at where most of Yu Suzuki's peers from the '80s and '90s are these days--nowhere. You can't compare a tiny indie studio to what's happening at Ys Net. For one, Suzuki is working on an established franchise and needs to skate around quite a few issues and deal with many different license holders, etc.
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This is also true, but some transparency in this regard would've been nice as I was under the assumption that the KS was for S3's development, not establishing Ys Net, though obviously there's a bit of overlap.
 
iknifaugood said:
And you're suggesting I'm trolling? Making a game like Mario is orders of magnitude more difficult than a game where the player can run around pressing interact on things and occasionally get into fights. I'm not even going to bother explaining to you how the number of things that can break is infinitely higher in Mario than Shenmue.
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What's with the pissing contest? ALL games are subject to things that can break. I seem to remember an anecdote about the original Shenmue where the dev team noticed the streets were empty and were wondering where the NPC's were. They found the bulk of them hauled up in the Tomato store thanks to a bug. Am I nuts? Does anyone else remember reading this or can someone point me to it? I feel like it was in an interview with Yu or maybe a roundtable.

The reality is they both have their own challenges. Shenmue is a game full of different systems. A driving system. A fighting system. An economy. Gambling systems. Mini games. Day/Night cycles. Weather systems. Hell, the fighting system alone would present challenges that no Mario game would ever face. Making and balancing a fighting game ain't no easy task folks.

Hell, imagine how much of a challenge that would have been on the Dreamcast in an era where open world games weren't really a thing? Trying to create and balance something like that would have been a pain in the ass in that era.

And Mario has challenges that Shenmue would never face...i.e timing, movement, precision of jumps and so on.

Your simplification of it to being just walking around and interacting and occasionally fighting is grossly misrepresenting just how much is going on under the hood of that game and how prone it could be to its own bugs and for what? A need for a pissing contest?

What is with the pissing contest? They both have their own distinct challenges. They're both gonna break in their own distinct ways.

Hell, I'm still surprised Shenmue III is a polished as it is given how much it juggles and the relatively small team it had working on it.
 
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iknifaugood said:
My initial point was that I don't like saying that Suzuki had "very little to work with" considering what devs have achieved with far less, and I used A Hat in Time as an example.
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Suzuki also achieved with far less and even completing S3 on a smaller budget+time scale while being bigger in scope(from many interviews) than its predecessors. Budget was a legit roadblock that legit gimped S3. Throws were cut. Leaving a gaping wound in the lore as well as game-play. I don't think Suzuki was happy about that decision but budget limitations forced his hands.
 
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Making ANY game regardless of the action or complexity is difficult and can easily be broken. Pac-Man even fucking Pong is more complicated than you think, go download a free game engine and try to make them you will learn just how hard a "simple" game is to make. Mario is much harder than even those to make and Shenmue is definately harder to make than Mario.
 
danielmann861 said:
What's with the pissing contest? ALL games are subject to things that can break. I seem to remember an anecdote about the original Shenmue where the dev team noticed the streets were empty and were wondering where the NPC's were. They found the bulk of them hauled up in the Tomato store thanks to a bug. Am I nuts? Does anyone else remember reading this or can someone point me to it? I feel like it was in an interview with Yu or maybe a roundtable.
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I’m pretty sure Yu shares this anecdote during his GDC presentation -

 
danielmann861 said:
What's with the pissing contest? ALL games are subject to things that can break. I seem to remember an anecdote about the original Shenmue where the dev team noticed the streets were empty and were wondering where the NPC's were. They found the bulk of them hauled up in the Tomato store thanks to a bug. Am I nuts? Does anyone else remember reading this or can someone point me to it? I feel like it was in an interview with Yu or maybe a roundtable.

The reality is they both have their own challenges. Shenmue is a game full of different systems. A driving system. A fighting system. An economy. Gambling systems. Mini games. Day/Night cycles. Weather systems. Hell, the fighting system alone would present challenges that no Mario game would ever face. Making and balancing a fighting game ain't no easy task folks. And Mario has challenges that Shenmue would never face...i.e timing, movement, precision of jumps and so on.

Your simplification of it to being just walking around and interacting and occasionally fighting is grossly misrepresenting just how much is going on under the hood of that game and how prone it could be to its own bugs and for what? A need for a pissing contest?

What is with the pissing contest? They both have their own distinct challenges. They're both gonna break in their own distinct ways.

Hell, I'm still surprised Shenmue III is a polished as it is given how much it juggles and the relatively small team it had working on it.
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No pissing contest. This somehow warped into a Shenmue vs. Mario thing when it was intended as A Hat in Time vs. Shenmue 3 comparison to demonstrate that the difference in budget shouldn’t be used as an excuse.

5 guys with $300k came damn close to Mario so don’t tell me dozens of guys with millions of dollars and the same lead designer can’t come close to Shenmue. Is my only real point.
 
Jigen said:
Making ANY game regardless of the action or complexity is difficult and can easily be broken. Pac-Man even fucking Pong is more complicated than you think, go download a free game engine and try to make them you will learn just how hard a "simple" game is to make. Mario is much harder than even those to make and Shenmue is definately harder to make than Mario.
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Damn straight...I've been trying to wrap my head around the Dreams (PS4) tutorials recently for shits and giggles and I have further new found respect for developers...this shit ain't easy.
 
danielmann861 said:
Damn straight...I've been trying to wrap my head around the Dreams (PS4) tutorials recently for shits and giggles and I have further new found respect for developers...this shit ain't easy.
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Quick edit on that Pac Man might actually be harder to make than Mario. You have to program the 4 ghost AI's to work constantly.
 
Reduct Shenmue III budget to just coding is soooo programmer...

PS: QA here
 
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