How to 'modernize' Shenmue IV without losing the essence of Shenmue?

[code l name]

I think some of the presentation could do with a bit of modernizing.

For instance, those early segments where you're walking to Bailu Village for the first time. Where you get those very stilted cut scenes that feel all too awkward in the way they keep cutting to black.

In any other modern game, that little section would simply be a "walk and talk" section. As in you would have control over the character but would be limited to walking and as you walk dialog would be shared.

The bizarre part of this was they already had the template on how to design and construct those scenes from the walking sections of Guilin in Shenmue 2. I mean I know it’s now something of a joke for people to criticize forced walking sections in games now but really Shenmue 2 was the progenitor of it all. How they couldn’t implement this properly is baffling to me and something I hope someone can ask Suzuki about eventually.

 

[xatruio]

You still have a few instances while walking with her to talk. Even ignoring the split second black fade cuts, it is a bit of a different feel, but still similar enough. It is an entirely new engine and 19 years on, afterall.

 

[Creward]

Agreed on the point that most of what people say is archaic is most of the time related to technical issues, lack of polish or not good enough UX.

Gameplay wise Shenmue is a point and click adventure (with action combat) , those worked fine in the lucasart era with Monkey Island and Day of the tentacle and work great in modern times as proven by games like Disco Elysium. I doubt the core gameplay of talking to people and search for clues can get archaic.

 

[orient]

The bizarre part of this was they already had the template on how to design and construct those scenes from the walking sections of Guilin in Shenmue 2. I mean I know it’s now something of a joke for people to criticize forced walking sections in games now but really Shenmue 2 was the progenitor of it all. How they couldn’t implement this properly is baffling to me and something I hope someone can ask Suzuki about eventually.

To be fair, the walking and talking in II lasts for hours, so I can see why they spent the time on it. In III it lasts for, what, 5-10 minutes? For a game on a limited budget, I can understand why they'd choose not to spend valuable time and resources on such a short-lived system.

The fades-to-black are 100% a technical issue. Maybe it's something they could've fixed with more time, but I don't think Yu Suzuki chose for those scenes to be that way for any sort of artistic reason.

 

[code l name]

To be fair, the walking and talking in II lasts for hours, so I can see why they spent the time on it. In III it lasts for, what, 5-10 minutes? For a game on a limited budget, I can understand why they'd choose not to spend valuable time and resources on such a short-lived system.

The fades-to-black are 100% a technical issue. Maybe it's something they could've fixed with more time, but I don't think Yu Suzuki chose for those scenes to be that way for any sort of artistic reason.

I’ll excuse and have excused a lot of technical shortcomings of the game given the budget but the way those scenes play out is simply bad. Especially since they are at beginning of game which not only creates horrible first impression but negatively impacts any cinematic flair the game goes for.

If they couldn’t create smooth transitions, they simply should have blocked off and staged those scenes differently.

 

[orient]

I’ll excuse and have excused a lot of technical shortcomings of the game given the budget but the way those scenes play out is simply bad. Especially since they are at beginning of game which not only creates horrible first impression but negatively impacts any cinematic flair the game goes for.

If they couldn’t create smooth transitions, they simply should have blocked off and staged those scenes differently.

I agree that they leave a bad first impression, but they definitely didn't impact the experience beyond that for me. The scene before it is good and the vast majority of scenes after it don't suffer from the same problem. I definitely wasn't dwelling on it a few hours in.

Personally, I found it was no where near as frustrating as the repetitive morning cutscenes with Shenhua or the unskippable dialogue, which persisted the entire game (mostly fixed now, thankfully).

 

[code l name]

Personally, I found it was no where near as frustrating as the repetitive morning cutscenes with Shenhua or the unskippable dialogue, which persisted the entire game (mostly fixed now, thankfully).

Well I can’t disagree with that, particular unskippable dialogue before the patch.

 

[Saven]

Personally, I found it was no where near as frustrating as the repetitive morning cutscenes with Shenhua or the unskippable dialogue, which persisted the entire game (mostly fixed now, thankfully).

Good Morning, orient. Did you get enough rest (from me)?

 

[mjqjazzbar]

There are fades to black, but has anyone commented on how almost every conversation in the game is also full of weird tiny jump cuts? You'll talk to an NPC and the screen will flicker for a second, like a frame or two of animation has been skipped. Not sure what that is about.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

There are fades to black, but has anyone commented on how almost every conversation in the game is also full of weird tiny jump cuts? You'll talk to an NPC and the screen will flicker for a second, like a frame or two of animation has been skipped. Not sure what that is about.

Yeah, it’s like the camera is supposed to move from one character in the conversation to the other character, but doesn’t know how to do it. Instead you’ll get the jump cut. Those bothered me, but I was able to look past it.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

The biggest issue I have is with the presentation overall, but I think that’s a lack of polish issue rather than a modernization thing. The first two games had excellent presentation, minus a few moments here and there.

The core gameplay is 100% Shenmue though. The only thing I’d change/update/modernize here is the combat, which I’ve unfortunately become less happy with on my second play through for some reason. I wouldn’t know how to do it though. Combining all the inputs for individual moves with a system that’s pretty much made for brawler is hard to figure out. I’d want them to keep all those aspects and totally refine the fighting system, but damn that would be complicated.

 

[WuyingRen]

There are fades to black, but has anyone commented on how almost every conversation in the game is also full of weird tiny jump cuts? You'll talk to an NPC and the screen will flicker for a second, like a frame or two of animation has been skipped. Not sure what that is about.

I think this was a coding error.

What I found more worrying was the stuttering in some of the pre-rendered cutscenes. At first I thought it was an optimization issue on console, but it appears the issue exists on PC as well.

 

[xatruio]

There are fades to black, but has anyone commented on how almost every conversation in the game is also full of weird tiny jump cuts? You'll talk to an NPC and the screen will flicker for a second, like a frame or two of animation has been skipped. Not sure what that is about.

feels like im watching Batman Begins.

Cannot decide if it is unpolished due to tiny busget shortcut or a coding error. 50/50. Nothing too bothersome from the whole of a fantastic game, though! Worth the wait

 

[orient]

Good Morning, orient. Did you get enough rest (from me)?

Morning. No, I have two kids under 5

There are fades to black, but has anyone commented on how almost every conversation in the game is also full of weird tiny jump cuts? You'll talk to an NPC and the screen will flicker for a second, like a frame or two of animation has been skipped. Not sure what that is about.

This happens when the camera chooses the same angle twice in a row. It's set, zooms or pans slightly, then resets back to where it was a moment ago when you progress the convo, which is why it feels jerky. You could fix this by remembering the last selected camera and removing it from the available camera options. I hate saying this sort of thing...but it seems like a pretty easy fix.

What I found more worrying was the stuttering in some of the pre-rendered cutscenes. At first I thought it was an optimization issue on console, but it appears the issue exists on PC as well.

Pre-rendered? I thought all cutscenes were real-time, hence the framerate chugging slightly in parts. I didn't notice it much, though.

 

[WuyingRen]

Pre-rendered? I thought all cutscenes were real-time, hence the framerate chugging slightly in parts. I didn't notice it much, though.

I’d assumed they were pre-rendered but you might be right. Both the opening cutscene and the scene on the raft when you’re heading to the final area of the game suffered a lot from this which made it seem like a low budget game. If they weren’t pre-rendered, perhaps they should’ve been.

 

[shredingskin]

Dialogue Trees, branching narrative segments, and the "rapport system" that didn't get included/was very half baked (that could be tied to the branching narrative).
Disco Elysium was great making stats-based conversations, Shenmue could do something similar with the rapport system (you get X path if you favor Shenhua or Ren for example).
Have something like the old masterpiece Indiana Jones and the fate of atlantis, that you could be a "fighter, social or logical" type of guy and let you approach the same obstacle in different ways.
Shenmue has some branching, but suffers from the early David Cage games, that even if there was some branching it was "invisible", and the player didn't felt the stakes of doing something X way or Y way (or didn't even know that Y or Z ways were possible). In Detroit Cage made the decisions map and make you rethink how you played the episode in your head (and making you want to replay it), making the player think about the choices is more important than the choice itself.
S3 also lacked main story minigames/sequences that used to be common on JRPGs, like the motorbike race to Nozomi, the forklift or the pool sequence.
There could also be some inventory puzzles.

But the most important thing of all is to improve the writing, that was the real lowpoint of S3.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

This happens when the camera chooses the same angle twice in a row. It's set, zooms or pans slightly, then resets back to where it was a moment ago when you progress the convo, which is why it feels jerky. You could fix this by remembering the last selected camera and removing it from the available camera options. I hate saying this sort of thing...but it seems like a pretty easy fix.

I really don't get how stuff like this made it past testing after nearly four years of development.

 

[Dg1995]

One feature they can add is to make buying capsule toys much less annoying(Since getting the rare ones can get a little annoying):

Adding a time skip feature in that to allow you to buy a bunch of capsule toys instantly.(And then show the players a screen of the capsule toys that they have gotten)

 

[Aman]

How can Ys Net make Shenmue IV meet the standard of today's games without losing the essence of Shenmue? People will argue some of the archaic design is Shenmue, but I don't think that's the case at all. I think some of the issues folks had with Shenmue III were simply issues with outright poor game design.

Two big ones for me:

1. Inventory management - Actually show how many items you are holding. We all know how big of a pain in the ass it was to figure out which move scrolls or items were already in our possession. They really just need to hire someone who can make menus that aren't a total eye sore.

2. Tutorials. Combat needs to be explained. "Mash face buttons" isn't acceptable. Maybe the combat isn't as deep as the combat in Shenmue 1 & 2, but I think more people would appreciate it if they were given some lessons in how to handle the combat. I also think better explaining the in-game economy would go a long way towards helping people understand stamina and money management.

On the other hand, I hope they continue to shy away from hand-holding maps full of blinking icons and exclamation marks. I am happy to organically discover side missions, shops and characters. I see this criticized in some places, but I think this is one of the things that make Shenmue superior to many other open world games.

I agree. The fighting i think needed something like Shenmue 2 where you had different opponents in Kowloon in a single objective; catch them, avoid them, deal enough damage, do a QTE, etc which all together helps you be a better player and understand the enemies and how to win.

 

[Aman]

You still have a few instances while walking with her to talk. Even ignoring the split second black fade cuts, it is a bit of a different feel, but still similar enough. It is an entirely new engine and 19 years on, afterall.

Just didn't make sense that they walk and talk, stop and talk, then walk more. They should walk until they get where they need then stop to finish the conversation. I think it would be more natural.