Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[code l name]

I think making the game almost entirely about the economy was a huge mistake. I don't find that grind fun and I don't really get why that was the team's focus. I was much more intrigued by exploring new environments, meeting people, advancing the story, and yeah maybe putzin' around a bit with arcade games and the like in Shenmue 1 & 2. The great cutscenes and memorable scenarios also helped and that's something Shenmue 3 lacks quite a bit of.

Was it really though? I mean it’s clear Suzuki wanted disparate elements such as gambling, jobs and health systems better connected through the circular economy but I never got sense the game was just about the economy.

You list all the shops in Niaowu and items you could purchase and if I’m being honest outside occasional side quest I barley paid much attention to it in my first play through. Then again I never really engaged in buying toy capsules in any meaningful way in Shenmue 1 & 2. How is this any different, it’s entirely optional. Of course if you want to get your Kung Fu to high level you will have to engage in training system but I liked how in that aspect I had options. For example instead of purchasing expensive move scrolls, I would engage in Pawnshop Exchange tasks and earn majority of scrolls through that way. That type of freedom was missing in originals and only really works when the systems are better connected as they are in Shenmue 3.

 

[Thomasina]

Whatever I say is my opinion. That's pretty obvious. I don't want to hide my immense dissatisfaction and disappointment out of fear of hurting someone else's feelings. It is a very divisive game.

I'd say that honestly the answer to your question is obvious: It has that Shenmue feel. Something which everyone can agree on, and that alone puts it into its own category, kinda.

I enjoy the Shenmue feel of the game, but I don't know.... Shenmue 1 and Shenmue 2 have the Shenmue feel, and I own those games on 4 different systems. I didn't just want the Shenmue feel after all this time. I wanted the series to get back on track. For me, the Shenmue feel just goes along with playing as Ryo, and uncovering all the clues to reveal the story, and the music and the sounds.

I'm still playing the game, btw. I haven't finished it yet. I'm in Niaowu right now, chasing the thugs again. Asking where all the thugs are. It's like the storyline of "Do you know where I can find any sailors" has been stretched out to fill out almost the entirety of Shenmue 3 when in S1 and S2, that was just a small portion of those games.

I have a lot of thoughts about this game so far, and it's mostly harsh criticism that boils down to bad decision making.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Was it really though? I mean it’s clear Suzuki wanted disparate elements such as gambling, jobs and health systems better connected through the circular economy but I never got sense the game was just about the economy.

You list all the shops in Niaowu and items you could purchase and if I’m being honest outside occasional side quest I barley paid much attention to it in my first play through. Then again I never really engaged in buying toy capsules in any meaningful way in Shenmue 1 & 2. How is this any different, it’s entirely optional. Of course if you want to get your Kung Fu to high level you will have to engage in training system but I liked how in that aspect I had options. For example instead of purchasing expensive move scrolls, I would engage in Pawnshop Exchange tasks and earn majority of scrolls through that way. That type of freedom was missing in originals and only really works when the systems are better connected as they are in Shenmue 3.

If you barely paid attention to the shops & items being sold, then would you also say the effort they spent creating these shops & items was in vain? I just don't really understand why these things were pushed at you in nearly every part of town. Maybe I didn't understand the economy or the way the pawn shops worked well enough, but it appears as though you could gamble & redeem tokens, completely bypassing the need to go to stalls/stores to buy houseplants and vacuum cleaners. If there was value in using yuan to buy items, I seem to have completely missed it. Is there a price list in town where I can actually figure out how much these random items will get me at the pawn shop? Because it seemed to me like I had to just go into shops, buy one of everything, and hope I'd end up with more money than I spent once I redeemed everything at the pawn shop. I also found the whole tokens to trade for items to trade for yuan stuff pretty unenjoyable as well if I'm being honest.

 

[spud1897]

No, it's not. Imagine yourself wanting a project at work. "I want to do this project, do a good job, impress my bosses, and in the end hope for a promotion". Now when you get that chance at work that you've been hoping for, you instead decide to fart around and do some experimenting, is that a professional approach?

After 15 years, the goal should have been clear.

Given that he had talked about encompassing circular world from the get go, it's hardly experimenting. If halfway through he's had gone do you know what lets whack in some features. They will have had a proper development cycle from the get go. We know it changed from 2017 when Deep Silver came in so who says it didn't change again?

You've no idea what influenced decisions A, B or C. None of us do. Not liking the game is cool, I 100% agree the story as a whole isn't enough. The grinding, I didn't mind it I got hooked on Wood Chopping and One-Inch Punch. You didn't like it, not a problem.

My issue is you're declaring a man unprofessional when you literally have no evidence as to what occurred in development or even why, none of us will ever know that. Critique the finished article, suggest changes that would be better, discuss to your hearts content but to moan about decision making when you don't know why it was made.... come on.

Also to say anyone trying to defend the game is unrealistic, just stop with that. It's becoming tiresome. I get it you plunged $1000 into the game and don't like it. Fine. Others do like it and have their right to defend what they liked as their view. You don't have to agree with it or even like it but show some more respect for those who are also expressing their views.

 

[code l name]

If you barely paid attention to the shops & items being sold, then would you also say the effort they spent creating these shops & items was in vain? I just don't really understand why these things were pushed at you in nearly every part of town. Maybe I didn't understand the economy or the way the pawn shops worked well enough, but it appears as though you could gamble & redeem tokens, completely bypassing the need to go to stalls/stores to buy houseplants and vacuum cleaners.

I looked at it as optional part of the game some players would or wouldn’t engage with. No different than the many pawnshops in Shenmue 2 I barley interacted with in my numerous playthroughs.

You gamble to earn tokens, those tokens are then used at prize exchange and sold to pawn shops for money. There’s no bypassing that circular economy because those items you speak of require money to purchase, which can be earned through that circular economy or through jobs.

I also found the whole tokens to trade for items to trade for yuan stuff pretty unenjoyable as well if I'm being honest.

It’s been said numerous times this was only way game could get through Chinese censors, same with games like Yakuza supposedly. Do I prefer system in Shenmue 2 gambling for straight cash? Sure but it’s concession that was made to try and get game into this market.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Again, even if you had a choice to not interact with it, it made the whole city almost entirely pointless if you didn't engage with it. As someone who did try to engage with it, I still didn't really get its purpose. Why do I want to walk into the lamp shop and buy lamps or go to the bookstore to buy a bunch of books I can't look at? What does this do for me? I suppose I could buy these items and sell them at the pawn shop, but the game does nothing to tell me what these items are worth--unless I buy the items and walk to the pawn shop, which means I've already wasted money. I think they spent a lot of resources on something that ultimately isn't rewarding, especially when the alternatives like gambling and fishing are so much better for earning yuan.

The token redemption thing could've been less of a slog. Did they really need to put the reward redemption center on top of the arcade or in other parts of town like in Bailu? That is what I found most annoying about redeeming tokens.

 

[code l name]

Again, even if you had a choice to not interact with it, it made the whole city almost entirely pointless if you didn't engage with it.

Again I don’t agree with you, as you appear to have this idea the circular economy was this all encompassing mechanic when there was many other ways to engage in the world.

So speaking for myself even though I barley bought items from shops, that didn’t stop me from completing numerous side quests for shopkeepers when they became available, completing pawnshop exchange quests for move scrolls or finding and hunting herbs around the world and trading those item sets for money.

I don’t pretend any of those elements are particularly deep, but it provided me options and variety in and around how I engaged in the world.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I enjoyed herb hunting. That was my main method for making money.

 

[B-Man]

I feel like all of the random, useless items were there for players that like collecting things. It's not really much different from capsule toys, which were useless in Shenmue I and only good for selling at pawnshops in Shenmue II. But some people would try to collect them all. It feels like it's an extension of that.

I do think it would have been nice if they allowed you to use them to decorate Shenhua's house/your hotel room or to give Shenhua a gift or something like that. It also seemed obvious that the female clothes could have been used to change Shenhua's outfit.

 

[Down by Law]

I played it for about 80 hours, three back to back playthroughs over two months, got the platinum, then deleted all my saves so I can do it all over again before 4 comes out.

All the games I've tried since : Fist of the North Star, Just Cause 4 and Yakuza 6, I just can't get into any of them the same way. I spent more time playing Final Showdown in Y6 than anything else. The Shenmue gameplay loop is unparalleled to me, the training, fighting, bit of story and incidental extras like herb picking etc. Actually planning an in game day. It's unique.

Roll on Doom Eternal and Resi 3. Hopefully ID and Capcom are on point to get me out of the post Shenmue funk.

 

[-=M=-]

No, it's not. Imagine yourself wanting a project at work. "I want to do this project, do a good job, impress my bosses, and in the end hope for a promotion". Now when you get that chance at work that you've been hoping for, you instead decide to fart around and do some experimenting, is that a professional approach?

After 15 years, the goal should have been clear.


This is no longer an excuse. When you see the half assed and half implemented systems in the game, the decision should have been made that "if we can't do this to the full potential, then lets cut it". Instead we got half assed systems left in, which resulted in everything being half assed.

Nobody contributed to Shenmue 3 kickstarter for a damn half assed food system and a half assed experience system. What kept us all going over the past ~15 years was the story. And instead of moving the story along to get us all excited with what could happen with a Shenmue 4, we instead got eating garlic, and qtes that don't work, and face off, and barebones fishing.

In my opinion, Yu Suzuki blew it. Continuing Shenmue may have been a once in a lifetime opportunity, and instead of going in focused, with a clear goal, we got a team that just farted around with experimenting with new systems that weren't necessary. And now we're in a spot where it's hard to imagine who will invest in Shenmue 4. He blew it.


No, I won't chill. The food system may be one of the main contributing factors to why we never see this series come to a proper end. It flat out sucks, and it's a massive obstruction to enjoying the rest of the game. I think it genuinely ruins Shenmue 3. Instead of enjoying the arcades, I'm grinding so I can buy garlic, mushrooms and now the snake drink.

The reality, imo, is that Shenmue is such a grindfest with such little reward, that it's not going to appeal to any new players, and it's divided the existing fanbase. So if Shenmue 3 sold poorly, how is Shenmue 4 going to do if it even gets made?

And the frustrating part is that people are here defending all the worst parts of the game, and blaming it on budget. Well if someone had managed the budget properly and focused on what matters, we could have had a completely different game and a completely different outlook on continuing the series. I'd rather had a 12 hour game that was focused and to the point, then this dragged out grindfest.

15 years and we ended up with Suzuki wanting to experiment with a food system, and didn't bother to look at all the food systems that was all the trend just a few years ago. That's precisely what it is: Unprofessional. And it's out of touch. That's precisely what it is. What actually is unfair, is that we all went along with it and we ended up with this. An experiment.

Yes, out of all the obstacles the Shenmue franchise is facing, I'm sure the food system will play a key factor in the series never ending...

 

[Thomasina]

You've no idea what influenced decisions A, B or C. None of us do. Not liking the game is cool, I 100% agree the story as a whole isn't enough. The grinding, I didn't mind it I got hooked on Wood Chopping and One-Inch Punch. You didn't like it, not a problem.

I liked Wood Chopping and 1 inch punch too. I mastered 1 inch punch and Horse Stance before leaving Bailu. The problem is they don't evolve and there are only 3 of these training games in the entirety of the game.

My issue is you're declaring a man unprofessional when you literally have no evidence as to what occurred in development or even why

My point is, is that from 2002-2015, the series had been dead. It was revived in 2015 by fans who wanted to see the series continued. When someone says that a project is their life's work, you would think that person has a clear path to get it done. When you get a once in a lifetime chance to give it another shot, you need to have a list of what matters most.

Imo, Shenmue 3 should have been a direct continuation of both S1 and S2. Take what worked in both of those games, and merge them into Shenmue 3. Creating and trying new systems is not a priority, especially if they can't be worked out to their full potential. That is experimenting. If he had these ideas in 1999, then that's fine. But they weren't in S1 and S2. And all these systems had been experimented with in hundreds of games over the past 18 years. If he chose not to look at any of those systems in other games in that enormous time span, and learn from them, then what do you call that?

Eating garlic shouldn't have been on that priority list.
Vacuums, lamps, and all the little trinkets and what not should not have been on the priority list.
The token system should not have been on the priority list.
These things weren't in the other 2 games, so no one is going to miss them.

I feel like all of the random, useless items were there for players that like collecting things. It's not really much different from capsule toys, which were useless in Shenmue I and only good for selling at pawnshops in Shenmue II. But some people would try to collect them all. It feels like it's an extension of that.

Collecting capsules was fun because they were cool items related to Sega and the Dreamcast. It is different because the vast majority of items in Shenmue 3 aren't interesting. They are very generic, to the extent they look like filler. Collecting axe and fire extinguisher capsule toys is neither fun nor interesting. Nor is exchanging irrelevant items and taking a chance on earning money. What mjqjazzbar describes is basically another gambling system. There's no way of knowing that through all the work of buying and exchanging random items, that you'll earn any money.

But again, this is another whole system that should have taken a back seat to what worked in the previous games, and to the story.

 

[Thomasina]

Yes, out of all the obstacles the Shenmue franchise is facing, I'm sure the food system will play a key factor in the series never ending...

I detect sarcasm.

Shenmue and Shenmue fans aren't unique and special. For Suzuki to be able to continue the series, he needs money. Just like every other game. Now, because Shenmue 3 is such an unfocused departure from the previous two games, the existing fanbase is now divided. We already had a small niche of a userbase to begin with. Now it might be half of that. So where is the money going to come from? Is Epic sticking around for the long haul? Do you think Deep Silver wants to sink more money into it? Are you prepared to double or triple your kickstarter contribution to make up for the divided fanbase?

The food system, because it is an invasive, pointless obstruction to the enjoyment of the base game, will most likely, imo, contribute to the series not being completed in this medium.

I think if you removed the food system, and allowed players to spend the money they earn on just the fun stuff, like in the previous two games, it would have been a much more enjoyable game.

 

[Dietsoap]

Shenmue and Shenmue fans aren't unique and special.

How DARE you say I'm not special...

 

[-=M=-]

I detect sarcasm.

Shenmue and Shenmue fans aren't unique and special. For Suzuki to be able to continue the series, he needs money. Just like every other game. Now, because Shenmue 3 is such an unfocused departure from the previous two games, the existing fanbase is now divided. We already had a small niche of a userbase to begin with. Now it might be half of that. So where is the money going to come from? Is Epic sticking around for the long haul? Do you think Deep Silver wants to sink more money into it? Are you prepared to double or triple your kickstarter contribution to make up for the divided fanbase?

The food system, because it is an invasive, pointless obstruction to the enjoyment of the base game, will most likely, imo, contribute to the series not being completed in this medium.

I think if you removed the food system, and allowed players to spend the money they earn on just the fun stuff, like in the previous two games, it would have been a much more enjoyable game.

Like I mentioned before, if the food system is such cancer to you, then you will most likely have a better time when you get NG+. As soon as I started my second playthrough, money was never a problem again. I finished the game for the fourth time yesterday and I still don't struggle with any money or grinding issues. In fact, I might even go as far as saying I'm starting to miss those elements lol. When you don't need to work or train anymore, the game feels a bit too short.

 

[Thomasina]

Yeah, but on a first playthrough you still have to grind excessively. New game plus is sort of a form of cheating, kind of like save scumming.

My original intent was to play on PS4 and then PC. PS4 version doesn't run very well. I've also seen some nice looking mods for PC, like improving draw distance for NPCs.

 

[B-Man]

Collecting capsules was fun because they were cool items related to Sega and the Dreamcast.

I agree, but there were also boring capsule toy sets like the harbor set. Also, Shenmue II had the most amount of cool Sega toys but I was always discouraged from spending any money that I didn't have to in that game because earning money was such a chore. For that matter, there were also lighters and gems in that game and those had nothing to do with Sega or Dreamcast.

My point is that there are gamers out there that just like to have a big list of collectibles to collect. The people who made a point of collecting every single item in Shenmue I & II weren't doing it because they were all so cool and interesting. They were doing it because they're completionists and they get satisfaction from collecting everything in the game. I believe Suzuki was trying to cater to these people by having a really huge list of collectibles in Shenmue III.

 

[Thomasina]

I believe Suzuki was trying to cater to these people by having a really huge list of collectibles in Shenmue III.

Well, I'd say that's another mistake, is focusing on filler instead of ensuring the most important systems work well. There's so many things in the game that seem like secondary ideas, when basic things like QTEs don't work properly.

I'm not coming in here saying Yu is unprofessional and the game is a mess 'cause I want to troll. I'm saying it because I'm playing the game and I can see what's in front of me. Unfocused, and a technical mess. There are a lot of technical shortcomings that aren't acceptable by any standard.

 

[spud1897]

I liked Wood Chopping and 1 inch punch too. I mastered 1 inch punch and Horse Stance before leaving Bailu. The problem is they don't evolve and there are only 3 of these training games in the entirety of the game.


My point is, is that from 2002-2015, the series had been dead. It was revived in 2015 by fans who wanted to see the series continued. When someone says that a project is their life's work, you would think that person has a clear path to get it done. When you get a once in a lifetime chance to give it another shot, you need to have a list of what matters most.

Imo, Shenmue 3 should have been a direct continuation of both S1 and S2. Take what worked in both of those games, and merge them into Shenmue 3. Creating and trying new systems is not a priority, especially if they can't be worked out to their full potential. That is experimenting. If he had these ideas in 1999, then that's fine. But they weren't in S1 and S2. And all these systems had been experimented with in hundreds of games over the past 18 years. If he chose not to look at any of those systems in other games in that enormous time span, and learn from them, then what do you call that?

Eating garlic shouldn't have been on that priority list.
Vacuums, lamps, and all the little trinkets and what not should not have been on the priority list.
The token system should not have been on the priority list.
These things weren't in the other 2 games, so no one is going to miss them.

That depends plenty of people liked the token system and it was the only way they could get the game through Chinese law.

He doesn't have to look at any games to learn from. It's well known Yu Suzuki doesn't play games so I don't really see him starting now. Also had it been more of the same I think he'd have been damned in the media. The game was slated for being too old anyway, a case of damned if you do damned if you dont.

Money says people will have been dissatisfied to not see an evolution. Now I'm not saying it's the right decision but you would be getting an equal amount of complaints.

 

[ShenSun]

The economy was awesome. The tokens, cash, prizes and how everything was interconnected was brilliant. I hope it stays in Shenmue 4 personally.