Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[shredingskin]

Bailu was supposed to be Ryo and Shenhua time.
But at the end we barely got any real development (and she was kinda rectonned from a tomboysh girl to a waifu), was there any actual emotional scene between the two in the whole game ? We get many interactions for fangmei, we got many with Nozomi, we got some with Joy, hell there was even some sexual tension between Xiuying and Ryo.
Not only that, they felt even closer in SII than S3.
The first sight we get of her is she running and swimming to save a deer (that's fundamental show don't tell), then we get all the little talks, we see her floating the flowers, there's a scene with an almost kiss (or at least Ryo thought), we see them stranded on a cave, we see her sing, she see us doing tai chi (both cool scenes), we see that she's a sporty type running to beat the rain and then jumping on rocks.
What does she do in S3 ? Play face papers scissors ? At the end when she gets kidnapped could be a "moment" but it's just "get out", even the Joy rescue had more weight.

 

[kpcart]

I find it ironic how some gamers say Shenmue 3 is out of touch with modern gaming standards, and websites like IGN give it a poor score, yet at the same time, players are playing things like Minecraft, plus heaps of new 2d side scrollers built in retro style, that get ridiculous high scores on IGN. Shenmue has to stay like Shenmue, otherwise it will be a completely different game. I think It plays much better than the overrated Final Fantasy games.

 

[Thomasina]

I think it's inappropriate and unprofessional to return to the series after 13 years of uncertainty and hiatus, backed by kickstarter who are fans that want to see the series continued and want to get closer to unraveling the story, and Yu Suzuki decides he's going to use the limited budget on experimenting with a food system.

Like, really, after all these years of not knowing if he'd ever get to complete this, you just want to fart around with experimental systems and mechanics as opposed to taking this opportunity to get the series back on track and show people why Shenmue is so beloved and why it deserves to be revived?

After all this time we're left in the same position as we were with Shenmue 2, but this time it's because Shenmue 3 is just a bad game with filler and grinding and it's hard to imagine who wants to continue to sink more money in to it.

 

[-=M=-]

I think it's inappropriate and unprofessional to return to the series after 13 years of uncertainty and hiatus, backed by kickstarter who are fans that want to see the series continued and want to get closer to unraveling the story, and Yu Suzuki decides he's going to use the limited budget on experimenting with a food system.

Like, really, after all these years of not knowing if he'd ever get to complete this, you just want to fart around with experimental systems and mechanics as opposed to taking this opportunity to get the series back on track and show people why Shenmue is so beloved and why it deserves to be revived?

After all this time we're left in the same position as we were with Shenmue 2, but this time it's because Shenmue 3 is just a bad game with filler and grinding and it's hard to imagine who wants to continue to sink more money in to it.

Dude you gotta chill with the whole food/garlic business lol. You talk about it like it ruined the whole franchise. Try some monk fruits next time idk lol. Also all the "annoying" grinding you keep mentioning is not really a mandatory thing once you get access to NG+. Just saying.

 

[spud1897]

I think it's inappropriate and unprofessional to return to the series after 13 years of uncertainty and hiatus, backed by kickstarter who are fans that want to see the series continued and want to get closer to unraveling the story, and Yu Suzuki decides he's going to use the limited budget on experimenting with a food system.

Like, really, after all these years of not knowing if he'd ever get to complete this, you just want to fart around with experimental systems and mechanics as opposed to taking this opportunity to get the series back on track and show people why Shenmue is so beloved and why it deserves to be revived?

After all this time we're left in the same position as we were with Shenmue 2, but this time it's because Shenmue 3 is just a bad game with filler and grinding and it's hard to imagine who wants to continue to sink more money in to it.

You can fault a man for making bad decisions. Hell you can fault a man for making a bad game, in your view (the game not the man just so I'm clear lol)

Questioning professionalism is unfair. Do you know why they made what they made? None of us do. Maybe he was too ambitious and needed reining back and it didnt happen? Maybe they just ran out of time.

Let's get some facts out there. He's delivered on the promise of making Shenmue III via kickstarter. Was it what everyone wanted? Seems not but that promise has been fulfilled.

With respect as well the majority of us arent game developers, we're making best guesses at the who, what and why.

Maybe Yu Suzuki listened too much to fans following the kickstarter but if he did it was done so because he wanted to make us happy. Hell we helped make the game happen.

If Shenmue 4 comes, of course they should listen to the criticism of 3 in its story development but other than that I hope they go into bunker mode and make the game they want. I'd rather that than listening to everyone here/on social media and we get something confused and not even close to a Shenmue game.

3 was never going to conclude the series. So thats not even a valid arguement. Had they tried to finish it in 3 games I suspect the soul of the series would have been lost.

Peoples expectations come into this as well. If anyone thought they were going to get a Shenmue game on a par with Shenmue 2 on a significantly lesser budget then I'm sorry but you're kidding yourselves. Maybe they fell on the wrong side of things and should have stripped back the mini-games/fan service? Who knows. What I also suspect is if the story moved on better with the exact same systems in place not anyone would be upset.

End of the day if people enjoy it, great, if not that's cool. Either views are subjective but passing off that as fact, which people are trying to do on both sides of the fence is my biggest issue with all of this.

 

[B-Man]

In hindsight, it's not even surprising that Ys Net focused their efforts on gameplay systems first. In the original E3 2015 presentation announcing the Kickstarter, literally the first thing that Yu Suzuki talks about is the technique scrolls and how they will connect to the different aspects of the game. In fact, that was the only thing that he went into detail about at all.



Towards the end he says, "Shenmue 3 will be the story you have waited for." And that's pretty much the only time he even mentions the story.

Perhaps he was out of touch with what the fans really wanted, but it seems like he was always most excited about implementing his ideas for the new gameplay systems and that was what was going to take priority.

I don't even necessarily think that it was a bad approach as long as this isn't the end for Shenmue. If we do get Shenmue IV, a solid foundation is already in place for the game itself. They can reuse assets from this game and most of the work on gameplay systems is already complete. Next time, they would be able to direct almost all of their resources towards story, character development, and things like that. Except we will also have a solid and fun gameplay experience, rather than an interactive movie or a visual novel.

 

[code l name]

In hindsight, it's not even surprising that Ys Net focused their efforts on gameplay systems first. In the original E3 2015 presentation announcing the Kickstarter, literally the first thing that Yu Suzuki talks about is the technique scrolls and how they will connect to the different aspects of the game. In fact, that was the only thing that he went into detail about at all.

That’s not quite true if the design document is to be believed. Before planing was to begin composition and story were reportedly worked on first. I recall seeing an earlier version of this and it mentioned 4 Chi You Men leaders under composition so it was of course subject to change but I don’t think story was an after thought although we can debate its execution.

 

[B-Man]

That’s not quite true if the design document is to be believed. Before planing was to begin composition and story were reportedly worked on first. I recall seeing an earlier version of this and it mentioned 4 Chi You Men leaders under composition so it was of course subject to change but I don’t think story was an after thought although we can debate its execution.

Well, that may be what the work flow document originally said but it sure sounded like the gameplay was what Yu Suzuki was personally most excited about. And the final product seems to match up with that much more than it does with the document.

When the game was first announced in 2015, did anyone care at all about the technique scrolls or how they would be implemented in the game? Yet, that was what Yu chose to talk about. It seems like the circular economy is an idea that was extremely important to him at least since the very beginning of the Kickstarter campaign.

 

[code l name]

Well, that may be what the work flow document originally said but it sure sounded like the gameplay was what Yu Suzuki was personally most excited about. And the final product seems to match up with that much more than it does with the document.

When the game was first announced in 2015, did anyone care at all about the technique scrolls or how they would be implemented in the game? Yet, that was what Yu chose to talk about. It seems like the circular economy is an idea that was extremely important to him at least since the very beginning of the Kickstarter campaign.

Well if you want to ignore the design document that’s your prerogative but it would make sense composition and story came first since that was already set in stone from the original novelization. It was a case of moving around required pieces. In addition Suzuki has always been coy about revealing any story elements so it wasn’t like he was going to give us a deep dive on the story at that point and it was probably easier to highlight new gameplay features and opportunities.

I mean there’s a reason Suzuki has called Shenmue his life work and I think ultimately it in large part is about telling Ryo’s story.

 

[B-Man]

I mean there’s a reason Suzuki has called Shenmue his life work and I think ultimately it in large part is about telling Ryo’s story.

I don't disagree with that.

And to be fair, continuing the story is the main thing that was mentioned in the video that was actually played at Sony's conference just before he was brought out on stage. So, perhaps I spoke prematurely.

Either way, I think the story will take center stage much more if Shenmue IV comes to fruition since Ys Net will not have to spend so much time creating a Shenmue gameplay engine and replicating Shenmue's art style using UE4. Not to mention the character models and other assets that are already created.

 

[code l name]

I don't disagree with that.

And to be fair, continuing the story is the main thing that was mentioned in the video that was actually played at Sony's conference just before he was brought out on stage. So, perhaps I spoke prematurely.

Either way, I think the story will take center stage much more if Shennue IV comes to fruition since Ys Net will not have to spend so much time creating a Shennue gameplay engine and replicating Shenmue's art style using UE4. Not to mention the character models and other assets that are already created.

Honestly there’s so much conflicting information and things that didn’t come to fruition spoken about in interviews during development it’s hard to know where to begin. I’m excited for @Switch interview with Implausible Industries but I would be lying if I said I don’t yearn for postmortem of Shenmue 3 with Suzuki so we could get a better sense of what happened during development and what he was up against.

The other point I see few bring up was Suzuki was essentially starting a new studio from scratch. Reading how challenging that process was for Kojima, who had probably bigger talent pool and more resources to call on to start with, that in itself is a huge undertaking. There’s no doubt if there’s a Shenmue 4, they will be in a much better position to hit the ground running.

 

[SMDzero]

I think it's inappropriate and unprofessional to return to the series after 13 years of uncertainty and hiatus, backed by kickstarter who are fans that want to see the series continued and want to get closer to unraveling the story, and Yu Suzuki decides he's going to use the limited budget on experimenting with a food system.

Adding a food system to SIII made perfect sense. Shenmue III was game that was supposed to come out in the early-mid 2000's and during that era many games were experimenting with food systems like GTA San Andreas and MGS3 Snake Eater.

I have no doubt that we might have gotten Shenmue 3 on Dreamcast in 2004 and it would have been called Shenmue 3: Steamed Bun Eater

 

[WuyingRen]

Adding a food system to SIII made perfect sense. Shenmue III was game that was supposed to come out in the early-mid 2000's and during that era many games were experimenting with food systems like GTA San Andreas and MGS3 Snake Eater.

I have no doubt that we might have gotten Shenmue 3 on Dreamcast in 2004 and it would have been called Shenmue 3: Steamed Bun Eater

I have absolutely no issues with Yu wanting to implement a food system, but I think the execution left a lot to be desired.

Shenmue has always been a series that focused on the mundane and minute details of real life and for many of us that’s part of its charm. While not necessarily adding much to the gameplay, adding things like stamina and the need to eat food could potentially have helped to strengthen the feeling of immersion.

Unfortunately, both food and stamina were implemented in such a way that they were not realistic in the slightest, and as a consequence, were not at all immersive.

I’m a firm believer that every element of an artistic work should serve a purpose. Unfortunately, I didn’t feel like either stamina or food did this in the end and consequently detracted from the overall experience.

 

[Suzaku]

In one of interviews, Suzuki said the food system was meant to be deeper,for example the types of foods you eat would have influenced the various battle techniques.
Unfortunately with resources and time available, he was forced to implement a simple "you can't run without food".


In the end all the S3 shortcomings are all the result of budget and time issues, Suzuki had crystal clear ideas about the game features, nothing was done random or with carelessness like some haters around the net claim.

 

[Thomasina]

Questioning professionalism is unfair.

No, it's not. Imagine yourself wanting a project at work. "I want to do this project, do a good job, impress my bosses, and in the end hope for a promotion". Now when you get that chance at work that you've been hoping for, you instead decide to fart around and do some experimenting, is that a professional approach?

After 15 years, the goal should have been clear.

In the end all the S3 shortcomings are all the result of budget and time issues, Suzuki had crystal clear ideas about the game features, nothing was done random or with carelessness like some haters around the net claim.

This is no longer an excuse. When you see the half assed and half implemented systems in the game, the decision should have been made that "if we can't do this to the full potential, then lets cut it". Instead we got half assed systems left in, which resulted in everything being half assed.

Nobody contributed to Shenmue 3 kickstarter for a damn half assed food system and a half assed experience system. What kept us all going over the past ~15 years was the story. And instead of moving the story along to get us all excited with what could happen with a Shenmue 4, we instead got eating garlic, and qtes that don't work, and face off, and barebones fishing.

In my opinion, Yu Suzuki blew it. Continuing Shenmue may have been a once in a lifetime opportunity, and instead of going in focused, with a clear goal, we got a team that just farted around with experimenting with new systems that weren't necessary. And now we're in a spot where it's hard to imagine who will invest in Shenmue 4. He blew it.

Dude you gotta chill with the whole food/garlic business lol. You talk about it like it ruined the whole franchise.

No, I won't chill. The food system may be one of the main contributing factors to why we never see this series come to a proper end. It flat out sucks, and it's a massive obstruction to enjoying the rest of the game. I think it genuinely ruins Shenmue 3. Instead of enjoying the arcades, I'm grinding so I can buy garlic, mushrooms and now the snake drink.

The reality, imo, is that Shenmue is such a grindfest with such little reward, that it's not going to appeal to any new players, and it's divided the existing fanbase. So if Shenmue 3 sold poorly, how is Shenmue 4 going to do if it even gets made?

And the frustrating part is that people are here defending all the worst parts of the game, and blaming it on budget. Well if someone had managed the budget properly and focused on what matters, we could have had a completely different game and a completely different outlook on continuing the series. I'd rather had a 12 hour game that was focused and to the point, then this dragged out grindfest.

15 years and we ended up with Suzuki wanting to experiment with a food system, and didn't bother to look at all the food systems that was all the trend just a few years ago. That's precisely what it is: Unprofessional. And it's out of touch. That's precisely what it is. What actually is unfair, is that we all went along with it and we ended up with this. An experiment.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I think making the game almost entirely about the economy was a huge mistake. I don't find that grind fun and I don't really get why that was the team's focus. I was much more intrigued by exploring new environments, meeting people, advancing the story, and yeah maybe putzin' around a bit with arcade games and the like in Shenmue 1 & 2. The great cutscenes and memorable scenarios also helped and that's something Shenmue 3 lacks quite a bit of.

I really would like to know when or why they decided to fill the game with hundreds, maybe thousands, of items that serve no purpose beyond being used for trade in the pawn shop. It also had a bad effect on my enjoyment of Niaowu, which seems to be built entirely as a place to go from store to store to buy stuff to sell at the pawn shop and seems to serve little purpose outside of that. I am aware Shenmue 2 had pawn shops, but I don't remember ever feeling like Shenmue 2's main gameplay concept was trading stuff to earn more and more money. I think there are at least 10+ cutscenes in Shenmue 3 where a character or Ryo talks about pawn shops or fortune tellers, like it's the most interesting thing in the world in this game.

Maybe I'm an outlier. I haven't seen too many people comment on the shops and the reward redemption stuff, but I have to say I almost feel like I didn't get it. I never really knew how much anything was worth and just bought up as much of anything I could find in hopes I'd earn more money than I started with. That isn't a very compelling or interesting development in the world of Shenmue, IMO.

Stamina? Eh, you can buy 20-30 garlics for what, 100-200 yuan. It's not thatbig of a deal to me. The better question is "why?" Why is this fun? Why is this interesting? I have wandered the net and read these forums pretty extensively, and I would say the stamina/food stuff is the biggest complaint people seem to have. It'd be a shame to see it again in Shenmue IV.

 

[Peter]

No, it's not. Imagine yourself wanting a project at work. "I want to do this project, do a good job, impress my bosses, and in the end hope for a promotion". Now when you get that chance at work that you've been hoping for, you instead decide to fart around and do some experimenting, is that a professional approach?

After 15 years, the goal should have been clear.


This is no longer an excuse. When you see the half assed and half implemented systems in the game, the decision should have been made that "if we can't do this to the full potential, then lets cut it". Instead we got half assed systems left in, which resulted in everything being half assed.

Nobody contributed to Shenmue 3 kickstarter for a damn half assed food system and a half assed experience system. What kept us all going over the past ~15 years was the story. And instead of moving the story along to get us all excited with what could happen with a Shenmue 4, we instead got eating garlic, and qtes that don't work, and face off, and barebones fishing.

In my opinion, Yu Suzuki blew it. Continuing Shenmue may have been a once in a lifetime opportunity, and instead of going in focused, with a clear goal, we got a team that just farted around with experimenting with new systems that weren't necessary. And now we're in a spot where it's hard to imagine who will invest in Shenmue 4. He blew it.


No, I won't chill. The food system may be one of the main contributing factors to why we never see this series come to a proper end. It flat out sucks, and it's a massive obstruction to enjoying the rest of the game. I think it genuinely ruins Shenmue 3. Instead of enjoying the arcades, I'm grinding so I can buy garlic, mushrooms and now the snake drink.

The reality, imo, is that Shenmue is such a grindfest with such little reward, that it's not going to appeal to any new players, and it's divided the existing fanbase. So if Shenmue 3 sold poorly, how is Shenmue 4 going to do if it even gets made?

And the frustrating part is that people are here defending all the worst parts of the game, and blaming it on budget. Well if someone had managed the budget properly and focused on what matters, we could have had a completely different game and a completely different outlook on continuing the series. I'd rather had a 12 hour game that was focused and to the point, then this dragged out grindfest.

15 years and we ended up with Suzuki wanting to experiment with a food system, and didn't bother to look at all the food systems that was all the trend just a few years ago. That's precisely what it is: Unprofessional. And it's out of touch. That's precisely what it is. What actually is unfair, is that we all went along with it and we ended up with this. An experiment.

Maybe best for you to find a new franchise to enjoy then, and move on.

 

[Thomasina]

Maybe best for you to find a new franchise to enjoy then, and move on.

What, I'm not allowed to be a Shenmue fan any more because I'm not praising Yu for farting around?

Look at all the money we've raised. I've spent over $1000 on Shenmue 3. You think I'm just going to walk away after all of this? No.

I love Shenmue, and that's why I'm upset with how Shenmue 3 turned out. This isn't a forum of just a bunch of random people and trolls. I'm here because Shenmue 1 and 2 have sat among my favorite games for the past 20 years. Don't tell me to go away because Shenmue 3 turned out to be unfocused.

Anyone defending Shenmue 3 is, imo, incredibly unrealistic. Everyone here keeps saying "when Shenmue 4 comes out... everything will be better" but we probably won't get a Shenmue 4.

There are so many games on the market that are casual experiences like Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley, games that are about trading and grinding.... Skyrim does it, Fallout does it, Stalker did it (one of my favorite games), Nier did it, Far Cry does it, Assassin's Creed does it.... there's so many. But what does Shenmue 3 do that none of these games do, or what does Shenmue 3 do better than any of them? And the answer, imo, is nothing more than "I'm a Shenmue fan and wanted to play as Ryo". Or, "I'm a Shenmue fan and want to fish while listening to music from Shenmue". That's it. It does nothing better than any of those other games, except that we're Shenmue fans.

I'm pissed off because I'm a Shenmue fan. And I enjoy lots of other games, btw. I love gaming. And even more, I love well made games.

 

[Peter]

I'm not saying anything of the sort.

What i am saying is if you are that pissed off then heed my advice and log out of the forums until you are in a more relaxed frame of mind to discuss the series with other people. You have been advised of that twice now. I don't know if you are getting the message, but i will say it one last time:

1. Not everyone shares your opinion
2. Not everyone agrees with you
3. You do NOT the final say on a conversation topic

 

[LemonHaze]

But what does Shenmue 3 do that none of these games do, or what does Shenmue 3 do better than any of them? And the answer, imo, is nothing more than "I'm a Shenmue fan and wanted to play as Ryo". Or, "I'm a Shenmue fan and want to fish while listening to music from Shenmue". That's it. It does nothing better than any of those other games, except that we're Shenmue fans.

I'd say that honestly the answer to your question is obvious: It has that Shenmue feel. Something which everyone can agree on, and that alone puts it into its own category, kinda.

For me, some of what people complain about with Shenmue III are the same things that people complained about with Shenmue I. It's meant to be a world you experience and lose yourself in, not something that forces you to play one way or another, or down one path, for example.