Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

Move the conversation on.

What Lemon has done is provide examples of his view, yet I don't see any from @iknifaugood and this has morphed into something that comes across as being done in bad faith.

Anymore on this particular angle will be met with warnings and bans, it's gone on long enough
 
It is disingenous to sum up games like this. As I said, it's far more fleshed than that. And then again, Shenmue III's issue is that it's about "Finding Yuan/Fighting thugs".
I also explained the differences in why same criticism doesn't apply to the first two.
In the same way that you’re accusing others of being disingenuous for oversimplifying the first two games, I think you are being a little reductive when it comes to Shenmue 3’s narrative.

In Bailu village, you look for information about the thugs and then begin tracking down stonemasons. You then learn about Iwao visiting the village and seek out information about the bridge and the Royal visit. Upon encountering a foe that beats you, you seek help from a master but are told that you’re not ready. You instead seek out a drunk who forces you to carry out seemingly menial tasks in order to improve your reflexes before eventually teaching you the move. After defeating the thug, you have to uncover the scrolls through puzzle solving.

In Niaowu, you have to ask around to find Yuan and then encounter thugs. You need to work to gain access to one of the places that they hang out and then head to their hideout. Upon getting beaten twice, you seek out a master who tells you that you’re not ready. You find a move and prove yourself to the master and he reluctantly teaches you the move. Before you can beat the boss, Shenhua is taken and you have to leave.

I’m not arguing that there aren’t similarities and the storytelling leaves a lot to be desired, but reducing both sections down to search->lose->train->win is no less disingenuous than what spud did with the original games.
 
Backseat Moderating.
I don't post here very frequently but in a short span of time I've witnessed an unusual amount of threats.

Why does every interaction need your oversight? If a discussion doesn't interest you then just opt out of it and let others continue.
 
Good news, i just played a 20 minute 3d mario game on playstation dreams. We should have Shenmue 4 by next week


I'm actually waiting to see if anyone will try to do something with it. Even if it's just recreating the Hazuki Dojo or another environment...I would almost be shocked if nothing shows up.
 
I'm actually waiting to see if anyone will try to do something with it. Even if it's just recreating the Hazuki Dojo or another environment...I would almost be shocked if nothing shows up.

Its already got lucky hit and a stickman version of yokosuka arcade

Loving the game so far
 
Its already got lucky hit and a stickman version of yokosuka arcade

Loving the game so far

Really? I should go back in and check it out. The little bit of time I've spent with it has really been checking out the creation and tutorial stuff..I really haven't dug that deep into anyone else's creations...will check it out tonight.
 
Really? I should go back in and check it out. The little bit of time I've spent with it has really been checking out the creation and tutorial stuff..I really haven't dug that deep into anyone else's creations...will check it out tonight.

Typw shenmue in the search area and you'll see it. Loving dreams so far. I recommend everyone check it out
 
What Lemon has done is provide examples of his view, yet I don't see any from @iknifaugood and this has morphed into something that comes across as being done in bad faith.
I’m sorry but I’m going to have to defend myself on that count. I stopped replying to Lemon when it became clear that he was only interested in dragging the conversation into some semantic debate about Mario vs. Shenmue while grossly misusing technical terms. The only point I was making was that S3 having a $7M budget was no excuse for its massive failings considering both the lack of technical prowess on display (seriously, everything it does, Shenmue did 20 years earlier and even then it was hardly revolutionary; games like Ultima IX and Zelda had NPCs with schedules and day/night cycles and weather systems, Shenmue's main revolution was in the scope and detail of its world and NPCs, but I digress) when you compare that to what smaller, less experienced developers have accomplished with a fraction of that money (hence the comparison to A Hat in Time, which attained a level of quality in both mechanics and design that's truly impressive). None of this is meant as a sleight against S1 and 2, they’re not games that were pushing the envelope in terms of gameplay, they were about advancing gaming as a storytelling medium and pushing graphical fidelity forward in the pursuit of realism.

This was to answer the question as it was asked, is Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards? Yes, nothing in S3 modernizes the series or elevates it beyond what came before with the exception of added graphical fidelity. Was it the best he could do with his limited budget? It would appear so and the caveat would be that I don't consider the budget a sufficient limitation. I've said my piece and I won't respond anymore.
 
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I’m sorry but I’m going to have to defend myself on that count. I stopped replying to Lemon when it became clear that he was only interested in dragging the conversation into some semantic debate about Mario vs. Shenmue while grossly misusing technical terms. The only point I was making was that S3 having a $7M budget was no excuse for its massive failings considering both the lack of technical prowess on display (seriously, everything it does, Shenmue did 20 years earlier and even then it was hardly revolutionary; games like Ultima IX and Zelda had NPCs with schedules and day/night cycles and weather systems, Shenmue's main revolution was in the scope and detail of its world and NPCs, but I digress) when you compare that to what smaller, less experienced developers have accomplished with a fraction of that money (hence the comparison to A Hat in Time, which attained a level of quality in both mechanics and design that's truly impressive).

This was to answer the question as it was asked, is Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards? Yes, nothing in S3 modernizes the series or elevates it beyond what came before with the exception of added graphical fidelity. Was it the best he could do with his limited budget? It would appear so and the caveat would be that I don't consider the budget a sufficient limitation. I've said my piece and I won't respond anymore.
Comparing Shenmue 3 to other games with similar circumstances seems a little unfair.

Im sure if given the opportunity to work on a brand new IP, Yu Suzuki could had done a lot with $7m-$12m. Unfortunately, his mandate was to use that money to create a sequel to Shenmue 2.

This meant that he needed to design a game that mirrored and built upon what was done in the original games and this cost money. Cutting the English dub and resorting to unvoiced dialogue for NPCs would have drawn huge criticism and been seen as a step backwards. Having tiny towns with no mini games or jobs would have been seen as a step backwards. These things needed to be incorporated into the game and these things likely ate up a huge chunk of the game’s budget.

There are games that show more innovation than Shenmue 3 out there and many of these have been created with smaller teams and budgets, but comparing these games to a game that’s mechanics and gameplay were effectively essential to pleasing fans and critics doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
 
This meant that he needed to design a game that mirrored and built upon what was done in the original games and this cost money. Cutting the English dub and resorting to unvoiced dialogue for NPCs would have drawn huge criticism and been seen as a step backwards. Having tiny towns with no mini games or jobs would have been seen as a step backwards. These things needed to be incorporated into the game and these things likely ate up a huge chunk of the game’s budget.
Well having a poorly written story that drags its feet without advancing the plot or providing meaningful character moments or memorable action scenes is also seen as a step backward. But hey, forklifts.

I appreciate the dilemma Suzuki was in but S3 speaks for itself. He changed nearly every system in the game (imo for the worse) while adding new grinding mechanics that were never part of the old design and in the process sacrificed the only reason to revive Shenmue: the story while not even attempting to court new players. What did he think was going to happen?
 
My ps4 got fried around 6 months, too many games I wanted to try.
I remember the last day before I bought kowloon's gate from a HK account.
PS5 is so close that I don't want to buy another one.
 
Well having a poorly written story that drags its feet without advancing the plot or providing meaningful character moments or memorable action scenes is also seen as a step backward. But hey, forklifts.

I appreciate the dilemma Suzuki was in but S3 speaks for itself. He changed nearly every system in the game (imo for the worse) while adding new grinding mechanics that were never part of the old design and in the process sacrificed the only reason to revive Shenmue: the story while not even attempting to court new players. What did he think was going to happen?
I think the story was down to bad writing rather than lack of budget.

Aside from the combat (which he had little choice over), I don’t think the core mechanics of Shenmue have changed drastically and those that were changed worked for the better. We clearly have differing opinions when it comes to core gameplay, but personally I enjoyed the gameplay in Shenmue 3 very much (perhaps more so than the previous games).

Shenmue 3 was always going to struggle to attract new players owing to it being the third game in a series that most people never played, so I don’t necessarily see trying to please fans (who provided most of the funding for the game) as being a poor decision. It’s just unfortunate that the story and overall quality of the writing really failed to hit the mark.
 
To be fair...he was approached & handed that blank check. And Yu has openly stated that he has never operated at a loss for Sega since all expenses for shenmue 1&2 has been recovered through subsidizing his other works/IPs. Hence the respect and relationship he has with Sega after he had retired is still strong. And once in a while he still gets consultant/advisory requests from Sega as they still do acknowledge his talent/accomplishments.

That's something completely different from letting him create a whole game while funding it for him, of course.
 
I don't post here very frequently but in a short span of time I've witnessed an unusual amount of threats.

Why does every interaction need your oversight? If a discussion doesn't interest you then just opt out of it and let others continue.
Call that back seat moderating.

We've been extremely lenient overall.

The user in question has cleared up what he was going for, I disagree the core mechanics of the game etc have been changed, I appreciate the time taken to explain etc.
 
In the same way that you’re accusing others of being disingenuous for oversimplifying the first two games, I think you are being a little reductive when it comes to Shenmue 3’s narrative.

In Bailu village, you look for information about the thugs and then begin tracking down stonemasons. You then learn about Iwao visiting the village and seek out information about the bridge and the Royal visit. Upon encountering a foe that beats you, you seek help from a master but are told that you’re not ready. You instead seek out a drunk who forces you to carry out seemingly menial tasks in order to improve your reflexes before eventually teaching you the move. After defeating the thug, you have to uncover the scrolls through puzzle solving.

In Niaowu, you have to ask around to find Yuan and then encounter thugs. You need to work to gain access to one of the places that they hang out and then head to their hideout. Upon getting beaten twice, you seek out a master who tells you that you’re not ready. You find a move and prove yourself to the master and he reluctantly teaches you the move. Before you can beat the boss, Shenhua is taken and you have to leave.

I’m not arguing that there aren’t similarities and the storytelling leaves a lot to be desired, but reducing both sections down to search->lose->train->win is no less disingenuous than what spud did with the original games.




Except I did far more than that. Heck, I could've included the expensive item you need to buy in both cases. It's the EXACT same loop.
No less disingenuous ?
Please. I explained that loop in like 6 to 7 lines of text. How is it the same as summing up a plot in 2 words ?
Then again, we're dancing around two different things. The problem isn't when you sum up the plot. The problem is when you explain the narrative structure.

Do it for Shenmue I and II for both areas of the game. And you'lll see the issues of Shenmue III.
 
Except I did far more than that. Heck, I could've included the expensive item you need to buy in both cases. It's the EXACT same loop.
No less disingenuous ?
Please. I explained that loop in like 6 to 7 lines of text. How is it the same as summing up a plot in 2 words ?
Then again, we're dancing around two different things. The problem isn't when you sum up the plot. The problem is when you explain the narrative structure.

Do it for Shenmue I and II for both areas of the game. And you'lll see the issues of Shenmue III.
That’s where I have to disagree. The loop is no more the same than it was been in the first few games if you reduce it down to the core elements.

Reducing S3 down to Search for information -> fight bad guys -> find mentor -> grind -> beat boss -> move to next area -> repeat is all well and good, but complaining when somebody does the same with S1 or S2 seems a little hypocritical...


Shenmue 2Shenmue 3
Arrive in new area and begin searching for Lishao Tao.Arrive in new area and begin searching for Mr Yuan.
Encounter the Heavens.Encounter the Blue Spiders.
Train with master LT. Carry books.Grind money to pay for wine.
Grind money to meet Ren.Train with drunk master. Catch chickens.
Meet and catch Ren to progress the story.Beat MM MK1 to progress the story.
Arrive in new area and begin searching for Zu.Arrive in new area and continue searching for Mr Yuan.
Encounter the Yellow Heads.Encounter the Red Snakes.
Zu is taken by the yellow heads.Get a VIP pass to gain access to the Casino VIP room.
Perform well in street fights to get the attention of the scout.Infiltrate the Red Snakes hideout.
Grind for money to enter the main street fights.Grind for money to get the skill book.
Infiltrate the Yellow Head Building.Shenhua is taken by the Red Snakes.
Defeat Dou Niu.Head to the castle to rescue Shenhua and Mr Yuan.
Rescue Zu.Defeat MM Mk2.
Move on to new area.Move on to new area.
Im sure you’re going to argue that I missed out key plot points in S2 like learning the Wude and searching for information about Zu and I agree entirely. My argument is that you chose to miss out key plot points in S3 like investigating the disappearing stone masons and searching for information about the royal envoy and the Verdant Bridge. Did Shenmue 2 do a better job of incorporating these additional plot points? Absolutely; but to pretend that all there was in S3 was a simple A-B-C-D-A-B-C-D structure seems disingenuous to me.

It’s true that the key story beats were similar in both Niaowu and Bailu, but I think the key story beats in 1 and 2 both follow the same pattern when it comes to key plot-drivers in the first two sections of each game. Sailors->Mad Angels, Heavens->Yellow Heads, Blue Spiders->Red Snakes.
 
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That’s where I have to disagree. The loop is no more the same than it was been in the first few games if you reduce it down to the core elements.

Reducing S3 down to Search for information -> fight bad guys -> find mentor -> grind -> beat boss -> move to next area -> repeat is all well and good, but complaining when somebody does the same with S1 or S2 seems a little hypocritical...


Shenmue 2Shenmue 3
Arrive in new area and begin searching for Lishao Tao.Arrive in new area and begin searching for Mr Yuan.
Encounter the Heavens.Encounter the Blue Spiders.
Train with master LT. Carry books.Grind money to pay for wine.
Grind money to meet Ren.Train with drunk master. Catch chickens.
Meet and catch Ren to progress the story.Beat MM MK1 to progress the story.
Arrive in new area and begin searching for Zu.Arrive in new area and continue searching for Mr Yuan.
Encounter the Yellow Head.Encounter the Red Snakes.
I ran out of space in the table and don’t know how to add more, but I could go on.


Im sure you’re going to argue that I missed out key plot points in S2 like learning the Wude and searching for information about Zu and I agree entirely. My argument is that you chose to miss out key plot points in S3 like investigating the disappearing stone masons and searching for information about the royal envoy and the Verdant Bridge. Did Shenmue 2 do a better job of incorporating these additional plot points? Absolutely; but to pretend that all there was in S3 was a simple A-B-C-D-A-B-C-D structure seems disingenuous to me.

It’s true that the key story beats were similar in both Niaowu and Bailu, but I think the key story beats in 1 and 2 both follow the same pattern when it comes to key plot-drivers in the first two sections of each game. Sailors->Mad Angels, Heavens->Yellow Heads, Blue Spiders->Red Snakes.



And when exactly does the narrative loop in Wan Chai happens again in Kowloon ?

It's also pretty telling that you litterally had to trim half of the stuff happening in Wan Chai to reach a similar number of points.

It's also weird how you seem to miss the point, nearly on purpose for when it comes to the narrative structure of Shenmue III.

I didn't point it out as "Search informations" "beat thugs" "find a master" "beat the boss".
No, I pointed out how EXACTLY it is similar. Which is that you encounter TWO thugs, fight them, get defeated by their MUSCLED boss, to then find a master to learn a technique, with a paywall to learn the technique from the master, to then fight again the MUSCLED boss.

It's like those scenarios can be interchanged. The fact is you cant do that in Shenmue I and II. And it's pretty telling that you had to cut out Kowloon (heck, I'm.kind enough to not include Guilin).
Because we both know that you wont be able to repeat that narrative structure twice, which isn't the case for Shenmue II as opposed to III. Hence why you're being disingenuous here.
 
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