Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[Jigen]

I think of Shenmue 3 like a cake. Shenmue 3 is a delicious chocolate cake, but has some burnt edges and the center is a tad undercooked, frosting not evenly applied, in fact in some spots there's no frosting at all. Doesn't change the fact the cake tastes good, it just isn't as tasty as you know it could be. In the case of Shenmue it really needed more time in the oven and more ingredients.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think of Shenmue 3 like a cake. Shenmue 3 is a delicious chocolate cake, but has some burnt edges and the center is a tad undercooked, frosting not evenly applied, in fact in some spots there's no frosting at all. Doesn't change the fact the cake tastes good, it just isn't as tasty as you know it could be. In the case of Shenmue it really needed more time in the oven and more ingredients.

To me, it's more like a cake with the right ingredients but in which you didnt respect the recipe and also forgot some key ingredients like you said.
It looks like your usual cake. The taste is just average, it doesn't have the rich flavors it used to nor the texture.

To me Shenmue 3 is like this. It plays like a Shenmue game to some degree but it doesn't have the taste of a Shenmue game.
Everything feels like it's trying hard to taste the same but is lacking important elements for that.

 

[Funny Bear Burger]

But it hurts when said menu title looks like a student project. And I'm not being hyperbolic here unfortunately.

I couldn't believe they used Impact, of all typefaces, for the menu. It's an ugly font, ill-suited to menus, and— worst of all, in my eyes— inextricably associated with Internet Memes. I'm not really sure why they didn't use either of the ones used in marketing material— this one or this one— but if they absolutely had to go with a generic free one, they could have at least stuck to Helvetica…

Ahem. I have some thoughts about fonts.

 

[Thomasina]

I spent literally weeks in game in original Shenmue training and levelling up all my moves in the empty car park. With Shenmue 3 the fact you have three distinct training mini games along with mastering new skill books via sparing made it a lot more enjoyable and diverse for me.

Spending that much time training in Shenmue 1 was your CHOICE. It was open for us to play as we chose. You chose to practice. I chose to practice too, just not nearly as much as you.

And as for the training in Shenmue 3, it's also objectively bad. I still don't understand the QTE system in the sparring sessions. The game wants me to do the button prompts before it displays them. I don't understand that. And although I personally don't mind grinding away at Horse stance and 1 inch punch, do you think this is at all engrossing or enjoyable for new players? It's flat out tedious and repetitive, and only tolerable if you're a Shenmue fan.

I enjoyed reading this thread a lot more when folk were talking about how good my video is. Can we go back to that please?

Personally, I loathed your video. I was stuck in Bailu village grinding at the time I watched your video. To see you talk about how it's one of the best games you've ever played was infuriating because the experience I was having was in no way fun. I get it if you like Shenmue 3, that's perfectly fine. But to say a game with really bad design and tons of padding is the greatest game you've ever played, that's just not a pleasant video to watch. I'm one of the people who gave your video a thumbs down. Your video is what lead me to the belief that Shenmue 3 will divide fans of Shenmue from irrational fanboys of Shenmue. I've played a lot of bad games in my life time and many of them I've enjoyed, but I'm not going to say games with bad game design are the best I've ever played.

In the case of Shenmue it really needed more time in the oven and more ingredients.

I don't think it needed more time. I think the team needed someone leading making good decisions. It makes me wonder how many of the delays were caused due to working on things like eating garlic, the herb system, the convoluted exchange system, and FACE OFF! Is there anyone who has played Face Off with Shenhua and thought that was fun or worthwhile? It leads to nothing. Ys Net needed focus on what made Shenmue enjoyable, not more time.

@spud1897 I haven't read all your posts in all topics. I've been off this forum since the release. I started Shenmue 3 this month so whatever has been discussed up until this point, I've not seen any of it, by choice. Naturally, now that I've started and my experience isn't a good one, I'm going to want to talk about it. And I'm sure I'm not the only Shenmue fan who will come to this forum after this point and voice some annoyance with the game. Let Shenmue fans talk about Shenmue. If you personally don't want to see opinions from people who didn't play in November, then you should choose not to read their posts, not try to intimidate them.

 

[Jigen]

Well by ingredients I mean resources staff/money, I think most major problems at least I have with the game can be attributed to such.
- Lack of characters screen time/development. (Developing characters requires voice acting, actors are expensive especially with Shenmue 3 being localized to numerous languages.)
- Lack of story progression/ cool side events (The game had 3 writers)
- Mediocre facial /combat animations (Face scan and Mo-cap are expensive and requires actors)
More, but you get my point.

 

[GhostTrick]

Spending that much time training in Shenmue 1 was your CHOICE. It was open for us to play as we chose. You chose to practice. I chose to practice too, just not nearly as much as you.

And as for the training in Shenmue 3, it's also objectively bad. I still don't understand the QTE system in the sparring sessions. The game wants me to do the button prompts before it displays them. I don't understand that. And although I personally don't mind grinding away at Horse stance and 1 inch punch, do you think this is at all engrossing or enjoyable for new players? It's flat out tedious and repetitive, and only tolerable if you're a Shenmue fan.


Personally, I loathed your video. I was stuck in Bailu village grinding at the time I watched your video. To see you talk about how it's one of the best games you've ever played was infuriating because the experience I was having was in no way fun. I get it if you like Shenmue 3, that's perfectly fine. But to say a game with really bad design and tons of padding is the greatest game you've ever played, that's just not a pleasant video to watch. I'm one of the people who gave your video a thumbs down. Your video is what lead me to the belief that Shenmue 3 will divide fans of Shenmue from irrational fanboys of Shenmue. I've played a lot of bad games in my life time and many of them I've enjoyed, but I'm not going to say games with bad game design are the best I've ever played.


I don't think it needed more time. I think the team needed someone leading making good decisions. It makes me wonder how many of the delays were caused due to working on things like eating garlic, the herb system, the convoluted exchange system, and FACE OFF! Is there anyone who has played Face Off with Shenhua and thought that was fun or worthwhile? It leads to nothing. Ys Net needed focus on what made Shenmue enjoyable, not more time.

@spud1897 I haven't read all your posts in all topics. I've been off this forum since the release. I started Shenmue 3 this month so whatever has been discussed up until this point, I've not seen any of it, by choice. Naturally, now that I've started and my experience isn't a good one, I'm going to want to talk about it. And I'm sure I'm not the only Shenmue fan who will come to this forum after this point and voice some annoyance with the game. Let Shenmue fans talk about Shenmue. If you personally don't want to see opinions from people who didn't play in November, then you should choose not to read their posts, not try to intimidate them.

Your post is totally not hyperbolic.

It's fine to like Shenmue III. It's also fine to dislike it. Starting the whole "true fans/not true fans" leads nowhere.

I believe Shenmue III isn't a good game. But if someone believe it's a good game, we can always argue around it with arguments.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Yeah, the Face Off game made no sense to me. It has about three different outcomes, none of which lead to anything. I assume at some point there was an actual affinity system where doing these things would actually change your relationship with Shenhua. I don’t really have an issue with them leaving it in the game, though. I don’t think it detracted from anything.

The cutscenes that play every single morning? That’s inexplicable. I felt like a joke was being played on me every morning I had to listen to the innkeeper and Shenhua say the same exact things to Ryo. It was like running a gauntlet of tedium. How didn’t the play testers raise this as something that’s incredibly annoying? I also didn’t get the sparring and QTE prompts. Why don’t we get these prompts in the actual matches?

 

[Jigen]

listen to the innkeeper and Shenhua say the same exact things to Ryo.

Like the EXACT same thing in Shenmue 2??

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Did you have to sit through two dialogue cutscenes with the same exact dialogue every single morning in Shenmue 2? For 75% of the game? I don’t remember that. And if you did, then it also sucked in Shenmue 2. What’s the use in defending something so pointless and tedious?

 

[Thomasina]

It's also fine to dislike it. Starting the whole "true fans/not true fans" leads nowhere.

I didn't say "true fans". I said "Shenmue fans" and "Shenmue fanboys". A fanboy is going to be someone who defends it regardless of how bad it is. A fan is someone who will support but see the missteps.

I still love Shenmue and if Shenmue 4 happens then I'll buy it and play it, but to me, I'm not going to defend Shenmue 3 because I think it's a bad game.

The fanatics telling Yu Suzuki that Shenmue 3 is a dream come true are misleading him in thinking he made a great game. He didn't make a great game. If Shenmue 4 happens, Yu needs to look at the criticism of Shenmue 3 and take it seriously.

 

[Jigen]

Did you have to sit through two dialogue cutscenes with the same exact dialogue in Shenmue 2? For 75% of the game? I don’t remember that. And if you did, then it also sucked in Shenmue 2. What’s the use in defending something so pointless and tedious?

Not really defending it really just making the point it isn't new here. I also see it as a thing that was necessary, Ryo needed to be charged money and having it magically vanish every morning wouldn't make any sense.

 

[Jigen]

A fanboy is going to be someone who defends it regardless of how bad it is.

Or perhaps certain people have a different opinion than you do.

 

[spud1897]

Spending that much time training in Shenmue 1 was your CHOICE. It was open for us to play as we chose. You chose to practice. I chose to practice too, just not nearly as much as you.

And as for the training in Shenmue 3, it's also objectively bad. I still don't understand the QTE system in the sparring sessions. The game wants me to do the button prompts before it displays them. I don't understand that. And although I personally don't mind grinding away at Horse stance and 1 inch punch, do you think this is at all engrossing or enjoyable for new players? It's flat out tedious and repetitive, and only tolerable if you're a Shenmue fan.


Personally, I loathed your video. I was stuck in Bailu village grinding at the time I watched your video. To see you talk about how it's one of the best games you've ever played was infuriating because the experience I was having was in no way fun. I get it if you like Shenmue 3, that's perfectly fine. But to say a game with really bad design and tons of padding is the greatest game you've ever played, that's just not a pleasant video to watch. I'm one of the people who gave your video a thumbs down. Your video is what lead me to the belief that Shenmue 3 will divide fans of Shenmue from irrational fanboys of Shenmue. I've played a lot of bad games in my life time and many of them I've enjoyed, but I'm not going to say games with bad game design are the best I've ever played.


I don't think it needed more time. I think the team needed someone leading making good decisions. It makes me wonder how many of the delays were caused due to working on things like eating garlic, the herb system, the convoluted exchange system, and FACE OFF! Is there anyone who has played Face Off with Shenhua and thought that was fun or worthwhile? It leads to nothing. Ys Net needed focus on what made Shenmue enjoyable, not more time.

@spud1897 I haven't read all your posts in all topics. I've been off this forum since the release. I started Shenmue 3 this month so whatever has been discussed up until this point, I've not seen any of it, by choice. Naturally, now that I've started and my experience isn't a good one, I'm going to want to talk about it. And I'm sure I'm not the only Shenmue fan who will come to this forum after this point and voice some annoyance with the game. Let Shenmue fans talk about Shenmue. If you personally don't want to see opinions from people who didn't play in November, then you should choose not to read their posts, not try to intimidate them.

Where am I intimidating anyone? I've even said all opinions should be respected.

 

[code l name]

Spending that much time training in Shenmue 1 was your CHOICE. It was open for us to play as we chose. You chose to practice. I chose to practice too, just not nearly as much as you.

Yes it was my choice, just as players have the choice in Shenmue 3 in terms of how much they want to engage in the training and sparing systems. So your point because moot. None of it is compulsory but unlike the former where I was relegated to simply shadow fighting in an empty space, here there was much better systems in place along with greater variety in the way players can engage in training.

I still don't understand the QTE system in the sparring sessions. The game wants me to do the button prompts before it displays them. I don't understand that.

Again another factual inaccuracy. While in sparing mode each move (new moves) or purchased skill book will have a gauge bar, every time you pull off the move successfully the gauge will fill up. If you pull off QTE button sequences for said move when prompted this will fill up gauge faster allowing you to eventually master the move.

Now if you want to discuss timing window for sparing QTE’s or especially regular QTE’s I have large problems with it.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Here’s how I would’ve gotten around those cutscenes:

1. Ryo comes downstairs, money leaves his wallet. We already know the innkeeper wants his money.

2. Ryo walks past Shenhua, a button prompt comes up if you really want to hear Ryo and Shenhua have the same exact exchange they have every day.

Both would cost Ys Net zero development time and not annoy anyone. I have no idea why they kept these weird things in the game.

Anyway, they didn’t ruin the game for me. They’re just things I found odd and annoying.

 

[Thomasina]

I don’t really have an issue with them leaving it in the game, though. I don’t think it detracted from anything.

I do have an issue with it because they supposedly had a tight budget and this is what they spent time and money developing? It is a gigantic waste of time and even as a Shenmue fan, it was totally cringey and baffling.

This is what I mean that they needed to focus on what made the first games great, and run a tight ship.

When a series is revived from the dead and the future of the series is very uncertain, then what they are working on needs to be very focused on what's good, not experimenting with useless ideas.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Yes it was my choice, just as players have the choice in Shenmue 3 in terms of how much they want to engage in the training and sparing systems. So your point because moot. None of it is compulsory but unlike the former where I was relegated to simply shadow fighting in an empty space, here there was much better systems in place along with greater variety in the way players can engage in training.



Again another factual inaccuracy. While in sparing mode each move (new moves) or purchased skill book will have a gauge bar, every time you pull off the move successfully the gauge will fill up. If you pull off QTE button sequences for said move when prompted this will fill up gauge faster allowing you to eventually master the move.

It would’ve been cool to have the QTE prompts in the actual combat. I would’ve actually preferred that to pressing R2 to execute a command shortcut.

 

[Jigen]

I do have an issue with it because they supposedly had a tight budget and this is what they spent time and money developing? It is a gigantic waste of time and even as a Shenmue fan, it was totally cringey and baffling.

This is what I mean that they needed to focus on what made the first games great, and run a tight ship.

When a series is revived from the dead and the future of the series is very uncertain, then what they are working on needs to be very focused on what's good, not experimenting with useless ideas.

Boy you are just a fucking negative person.

 

[Dehone]

Yeah, the Face Off game made no sense to me. It has about three different outcomes, none of which lead to anything. I assume at some point there was an actual affinity system where doing these things would actually change your relationship with Shenhua. I don’t really have an issue with them leaving it in the game, though. I don’t think it detracted from anything.

The cutscenes that play every single morning? That’s inexplicable. I felt like a joke was being played on me every morning I had to listen to the innkeeper and Shenhua say the same exact things to Ryo. It was like running a gauntlet of tedium. How didn’t the play testers raise this as something that’s incredibly annoying? I also didn’t get the sparring and QTE prompts. Why don’t we get these prompts in the actual matches?

Yeah, I thought there was supposed to be some relationship building element im S3. Face off didn't make sense to me. I just guessed to see if I could win. I thought if I kept playing and winning, there would be some cutscene or reward. After round 7 or 8, I realized it was just an endless loop.

 

[Dehone]

Like the EXACT same thing in Shenmue 2??

Are you talking about Femgmei waking Ryo up every morning? Or the grumpy dude at the motel? That was annoying too, but it served more of a purpose because dude needed his money. Still annoying, but I can somewhat understand