Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[code l name]

So you'd cut the entire gambling system?

It’s an argument made out of sheer ignorance. For a person who talks about streamlining and focusing on essential things, yet proposes two completely different systems and doesn’t consider how that would effect the in game economy or the design built around that, it’s almost farcical.

For my work we have an online product that is distributed in China. Every year or so we get contacted by State Administration of Radio, Film and Television (SARFT) who has responsibility of regulating internet content and let me tell you it’s an extremely intensive and laborious process. We wouldn’t have capacity to build two platforms to circumvent them and if Sega can’t with their mainline franchise in Yakuza, what hope would a small independent studio like Ysnet have?

Again so many arguments are being made in bad faith by someone who frankly exposes their ignorance the more they talk.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

If it happens in Yakuza, which I’m starting to think it does because I’m having flashbacks to an area in Yakuza 0 that kind of reminds me of the gambling areas in Bailu, then I suppose it didn’t bother me as much because money is earned and used much differently in that series than it is in Shenmue 3. You definitely need to earn money, but to buy essential goods or participate in other activities, not necessarily to advance the plot. I think I just totally avoided gambling in Yakuza 0 because I didn’t enjoy those games. I apologize for ignoring or forgetting that.

 

[Kyo_JP]

For g... sake, Shenmue I and II had the biggest budget and human power behind it, a full company behind it, a console needing to prove that was beyond any rival and the most talented teams in Japan in the late 90s, Shenmue III doesn't. And still what this game does on a 12m budget is pretty impresive. Give 12m to the Housers to make Red Dead 3. Good luck with that.

 

[Thomasina]

"Bad faith argument" in regards to "I wish this game was better and more accessible, with less padding"?

100% ignorant of what it takes to appease Chinese law and restrictions. That doesn't change the fact that what's in the game is busy work and padding and off putting to a majority of people.

I do know that when I gambled in Shenmue 2 that I bet, lost and won money. I didn't have to go to another place and exchange tokens for prizes.

Could the token system have been circumvented with a fictional currency?

 

[Thomasina]

For g... sake, Shenmue I and II had the biggest budget and human power behind it, a full company behind it, a console needing to prove that was beyond any rival and the most talented teams in Japan in the late 90s, Shenmue III doesn't. And still what this game does on a 12m budget is pretty impresive. Give 12m to the Housers to make Red Dead 3. Good luck with that.

My understanding is they had to build an engine from scratch, which is what the majority of that cost went to.

For Shenmue 3 they used Unreal Engine, and they had a deal with Epic that probably waived the majority of the cost, if not all of it.

But again, that comes down to prioritize and execute. A lot of resources were wasted on things that aren't important, imo. I would have preferred a shorter, more focused game. I think that would have been better for the longevity of the series too.

 

[Down by Law]

If you're saying that with a massive budget, it still wouldn't have been done well

No, I didn't say that at all. I said he would still want to try new things and sometimes new things don't work out, for better or worse. No matter the creator. No matter the budget.

A rare opportunity like Shenmue 3 isn't the time to come in and go wild with all sorts of ideas, and try ti implement the ideas that were left on the cutting room floor.

Stamina system, Fishing = going wild? Everything else, jobs, gambling, etc is in the original games.

The leveling/fight system in Shenmue 3 I found much better. Sparring = more fun than air boxing in an empty car park.
Being able to fight at the Dojo at anytime, an absolute god send for learning the fighting system. Helped pacing no end. Fight when you like at the Rose Garden for rewards. A definite improvement.

For Shenmue 3 they used Unreal Engine, and they had a deal with Epic that probably waived the majority of the cost, if not all of it.

But again, that comes down to prioritize and execute. A lot of resources were wasted on things that aren't important, imo.

Sorry, but I get really tired of reading this Epic deal crap. By the time the Epic deal was done the game was already finished. Epic could've paid Deep Silver 50 million dollars, and you still would have got the same end product.

I would have preferred a shorter, more focused game. I think that would have been better for the longevity of the series too.

You haven't even finished it yet. If anything, Shenmue III isn't long enough. Like judging a movie before the credits have rolled I don't think it's fair criticism until you've seen it through.

 

[code l name]

100% ignorant of what it takes to appease Chinese law and restrictions.

You’ve made that abundantly clear with what you’ve said and your outlandish proposal they build an entirely different economy for Chinese and non Chinese markets.

I do know that when I gambled in Shenmue 2 that I bet, lost and won money. I didn't have to go to another place and exchange tokens for prizes.

And did Shenmue 2 get an official release in China? It’s been explained ad nausea perhaps their deal to get Oasis Games to publish PS4 version and simplified Chinese PC version on WeGame platform could have something to do with that, go figure (I know we had Chinese Dojo member that said there were issues with Shenmue 3 release, perhaps they can come in and clarify).

In the end, you’ve clearly made your mind up and I’m not interested in endless bad faith discussions. I do find it curious you haven’t even finished the game yet have insight into anything and everything wrong with the game. Not that I think completing Shenmue 3 will change your perspective as many of us found last hours arguably the weakest but I wouldn’t spoil that for you.

 

[Thomasina]

You haven't even finished it yet. If anything, Shenmue III isn't long enough. Like judging a movie before the credits have rolled I don't think it's fair criticism until you've seen it through.

No, that's not true. A lot of what I'm playing isn't enjoyable. I don't need to finish the game to see that the QTE system is broken. Or that Horse Stance is extremely repetitive. Or that eating whole heads of garlic is completely illogical and nonsensical. Or that chasing thugs all the time is tiresome and uninteresting. I think the game can be judged in parts. Imo, Bailu Village was a total waste. I'm enjoying Niaowu a lot more, but it's just not a good game, and I don't think the budget is the problem.

And did Shenmue 2 get an official release in China? It’s been explained ad nausea perhaps their deal to get Oasis Games to publish PS4 version and simplified Chinese PC version on WeGame platform could have something to do with that, go figure (I know we had Chinese Dojo member that said there were issues with Shenmue 3 release, perhaps they can come in and clarify).

I don't know if any of the Shenmue games released in China. I quite frankly don't care about China. What I do care about is the North American and European versions, and the token system we got totally sucks.

 

[-=M=-]

No, that's not true. A lot of what I'm playing isn't enjoyable. I don't need to finish the game to see that the QTE system is broken. Or that Horse Stance is extremely repetitive. Or that eating whole heads of garlic is completely illogical and nonsensical. Or that chasing thugs all the time is tiresome and uninteresting. I think the game can be judged in parts. Imo, Bailu Village was a total waste. I'm enjoying Niaowu a lot more, but it's just not a good game, and I don't think the budget is the problem.


I don't know if any of the Shenmue games released in China. I quite frankly don't care about China. What I do care about is the North American and European versions, and the token system we got totally sucks.

It's kinda funny when you think about it cause China is arguably the main subject of Shenmue lol.

 

[Peter]

 

[ShenSun]

Just catching up with the thread

@Thomasina , I've read through your posts and some of it i disagree with. Some of it I actually do agree with quiet a bit. And some of it i disagree but I can see where you're coming from. However, its becoming very hard to take your posts seriously. The tone of your posts is very standoffish for lack of a better word. Personally, I see it like a baby throwing his toys out of a playpen.

There's many members on this board who don't like Shenmue 3. Some of them have similar opinions to you, yet they conduct themselves in a calm and composed manner, which in turn leads to a great forum discussion.

You may say, you don't care about others feelings and that is your own choice, but I have to consider everyone on this board. Calm yourself and compose yourself a little. It will make for a much healthier debate. If you continue this standoffish aggressive tone or continue to dismiss others , I personally will take action against your account.

You'll probably end up saying, you're being censored or you're not allowed to dislike Shenmue 3 on this board or you'll get banned etc, but again, there's many members on this board who share your opinions and they have no issues. So if it comes to that and I hope it doesn't, by all means use the victim card.

Last chance, step up or step aside.

 

[code l name]

I love Shenmue, and I love Yu Suzuki and I want to see Shenmue finished

I don't know if any of the Shenmue games released in China. I quite frankly don't care about China.

I’ll ask dear readers can you spot anything incongruent about both statements?

Like I said I’m not really interested getting myself involved in bad faith arguments.

 

[Down by Law]

No, that's not true. A lot of what I'm playing isn't enjoyable. I don't need to finish the game to see that the QTE system is broken. Or that Horse Stance is extremely repetitive. Or that eating whole heads of garlic is completely illogical and nonsensical. Or that chasing thugs all the time is tiresome and uninteresting. I think the game can be judged in parts. Imo, Bailu Village was a total waste. I'm enjoying Niaowu a lot more, but it's just not a good game, and I don't think the budget is the problem.

You're changing the goalposts.

You said - I think the game should be shorter
I said - You haven't finished it yet

Seeing as I have actually finished the game multiple times, I would say I am in a better position than you to comment on that.

Besides, how long it is comes down to playstyles. I read that you maxed out Horse Stance before leaving Bailu. Why on earth would you do that if you didn't enjoy it? The game is made in a way that it does not demand maxed out stats to progress. It is up to the player. In fact a player could make the game easier or harder depending on their willingness to train. I like that. A self imposed difficulty toggle without messing around in menus. Not many other games can pull that off.

I finished the entire first play through on a Kung Fu level of 29 which was plenty high enough and felt like a natural progression, doing one of each training activity every day like a proper Martial Artist. You are going to find things repetitive and boring if you are doing them for doing it's sake.

 

[Creward]

You're changing the goalposts.

You said - I think the game should be shorter
I said - You haven't finished it yet

Seeing as I have actually finished the game multiple times, I would say I am in a better position than you to comment on that.

Besides, how long it is comes down to playstyles. I read that you maxed out Horse Stance before leaving Bailu. Why on earth would you do that if you didn't enjoy it? The game is made in a way that it does not demand maxed out stats to progress. It is up to the player. In fact a player could make the game easier or harder depending on their willingness to train. I like that. A self imposed difficulty toggle without messing around in menus. Not many other games can pull that off.

I finished the entire first play through on a Kung Fu level of 29 which was plenty high enough and felt like a natural progression, doing one of each training activity every day like a proper Martial Artist. You are going to find things repetitive and boring if you are doing them for doing it's sake.

In his defense probably that minigame structure can have skinner effect on certain kind of people, like completionists or min-maxers. So it is not farfetched that he maxed out the training minigames even if he does not enjoy them.

 

[Thomasina]

I do enjoy the training minigames. My problem with them is 1) They don't evolve at all, and 2) There are only 3 of them. So when I look at things like the food system and the grinding required to maintain it, my issue is that I'd rather have seen the resources that went into the food system have gone into more variety and more diversity of training and minigames.

You're changing the goalposts.

You said - I think the game should be shorter
I said - You haven't finished it yet

Seeing as I have actually finished the game multiple times, I would say I am in a better position than you to comment on that.

Besides, how long it is comes down to playstyles. I read that you maxed out Horse Stance before leaving Bailu. Why on earth would you do that if you didn't enjoy it? The game is made in a way that it does not demand maxed out stats to progress. It is up to the player. In fact a player could make the game easier or harder depending on their willingness to train. I like that. A self imposed difficulty toggle without messing around in menus. Not many other games can pull that off.

I finished the entire first play through on a Kung Fu level of 29 which was plenty high enough and felt like a natural progression, doing one of each training activity every day like a proper Martial Artist. You are going to find things repetitive and boring if you are doing them for doing it's sake.

You also said it's not fair to judge the game before the credits role. That's what I was responding to. PS4 doesn't track time played but I think I've put an extensive amount into the game. I think the majority of Bailu was wasteful and resulted in nothing, and it's not at all anything I would have expected of Bailu. I think that whole section of the game should have been cut back considerably.

Anyone who plays the game is entitled to express their opinions on it. If someone plays for 4 hours and decides it's not for them, they can talk about it. No one is more deserving or entitled to talk about a video game over someone else. It's video games.

 

[Peter]

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/forum-faq.18/

This here is the FAQ of the site. TOS, or "rules" for those that haven't read them.

Just throwing this up here as both a reminder, as well as to demonstrate how both myself and the staff have been extremely leniant in regards to enforcing them. But I think it's safe to say we are coming to the end of that line now.

 

[The Wolf King]

As someone who's been a member of this site since near enough the very beginning and someone who still reads the forums weekly it's sd to see it's now a place where people are basically attacked or looked down on for not blindly loving this game. We used to be able to have real open discussions on good and bad. No one was told to "log out and calm down"

People waited 18 years for this, paid extreme amounts in some cases and have been left very disappointed with the result.
Dated gameplay, broken systems and a near non existent story all for the features that the gaming world has largely mocked all this time and some new grinding features to drag things out.

No it is not good for a game developer to be out of touch in regards to making games let alone the 3rd in a series he started.
He clearly misses the key people that helped on the first 2 games.

Let's not forget that this is also the lowest selling in the series (was outsold by the HD release) but also the lowest rated. And no I won't include the spammers who made 80+ accounts on metacritic to give it 10s... that's as bad as well people give a game crap loads of 1s. And this game has more user scores than it's actually sold.

It's sad to see Thomasina having to defend himself so much just for having an opinion which in this case is a fact(to him) because that's what an opinion is. It's something someone believes is true.

He clearly has enough experience with the game/series to have an opinion.


Will we get a 4th? Slim right now but if we do Yu clearly needs to let someone else lead the ship and make the game.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

As someone who's been a member of this site since near enough the very beginning and someone who still reads the forums weekly it's sd to see it's now a place where people are basically attacked or looked down on for not blindly loving this game. We used to be able to have real open discussions on good and bad. No one was told to "log out and calm down"

People waited 18 years for this, paid extreme amounts in some cases and have been left very disappointed with the result.
Dated gameplay, broken systems and a near non existent story all for the features that the gaming world has largely mocked all this time and some new grinding features to drag things out.

No it is not good for a game developer to be out of touch in regards to making games let alone the 3rd in a series he started.
He clearly misses the key people that helped on the first 2 games.

Let's not forget that this is also the lowest selling in the series (was outsold by the HD release) but also the lowest rated. And no I won't include the spammers who made 80+ accounts on metacritic to give it 10s... that's as bad as well people give a game crap loads of 1s. And this game has more user scores than it's actually sold.

It's sad to see Thomasina having to defend himself so much just for having an opinion which in this case is a fact(to him) because that's what an opinion is. It's something someone believes is true.

He clearly has enough experience with the game/series to have an opinion.


Will we get a 4th? Slim right now but if we do Yu clearly needs to let someone else lead the ship and make the game.

Thank you for proving my point about how people critical of anything cannot handle criticism of their criticisms. The user came in here telling everyone who likes this game that they are delusional fanatics. However, he is the one being attacked because people dared to challenge his opinions.

I have said a thousand times already, how many threads have been created criticizing Shenmue III? How many of these people have been censored by the moderators? How many people here who love the game recognize the game has flaws despite their enjoyment of it? If anything, Thomsaina was criticized more for his aggressive tone then his points.

I could easily turn this around and say that fans of Shenmue III are being personally attacked because they actually see good in the game. This whole “respect others’ opinions” thing works both ways. Just because someone shits on something does not make their word more sacred than someone who praises something. If he was censored for his opinion, you'd actually have a point. Until then, welcome to the nature of free speech where anyone's opinion can be challenged.

 

[spud1897]

As someone who's been a member of this site since near enough the very beginning and someone who still reads the forums weekly it's sd to see it's now a place where people are basically attacked or looked down on for not blindly loving this game. We used to be able to have real open discussions on good and bad. No one was told to "log out and calm down"

People waited 18 years for this, paid extreme amounts in some cases and have been left very disappointed with the result.
Dated gameplay, broken systems and a near non existent story all for the features that the gaming world has largely mocked all this time and some new grinding features to drag things out.

No it is not good for a game developer to be out of touch in regards to making games let alone the 3rd in a series he started.
He clearly misses the key people that helped on the first 2 games.

Let's not forget that this is also the lowest selling in the series (was outsold by the HD release) but also the lowest rated. And no I won't include the spammers who made 80+ accounts on metacritic to give it 10s... that's as bad as well people give a game crap loads of 1s. And this game has more user scores than it's actually sold.

It's sad to see Thomasina having to defend himself so much just for having an opinion which in this case is a fact(to him) because that's what an opinion is. It's something someone believes is true.

He clearly has enough experience with the game/series to have an opinion.


Will we get a 4th? Slim right now but if we do Yu clearly needs to let someone else lead the ship and make the game.

I completely refute this point. As moderators we've very careful to ensure that both sides of the argument are heard but what we call for is respect for the people posting.

In this case the user was called for the purely aggressive tone, not the viewpoint, the tone. There's plenty on here who have expressed their dislike of certain aspects of the game and this fostered some good discussion. So trying this "he doesn't blindly like the game so is being shutdown" is complete nonsense. Look at the threads on here, look at the TOS we've been more than fair throughout.

As for sales... do you have official confirmation of numbers? There's 1400 (give or take) user reviews on Metacritic so your suggestion is clearly speculation and hyperbole trying to be passed off as fact. It likely hasn't sold as well as people wanted but when the publisher said, literally last week, it met expectations that's hardly bad news is it?

I'm going to be clear for the final time on this issue. Like or hate the game, both sides of the coin are welcome. Coming in here with an aggressive tone, saying people are irrational for liking the game isn't and likewise the same for the opposite side of the arguement.

Crying censorship when this is being called out is just ridiculous. Any issues drop one of us a PM.

 

[danielmann861]

If it happens in Yakuza, which I’m starting to think it does because I’m having flashbacks to an area in Yakuza 0 that kind of reminds me of the gambling areas in Bailu, then I suppose it didn’t bother me as much because money is earned and used much differently in that series than it is in Shenmue 3. You definitely need to earn money, but to buy essential goods or participate in other activities, not necessarily to advance the plot. I think I just totally avoided gambling in Yakuza 0 because I didn’t enjoy those games. I apologize for ignoring or forgetting that.

It does happen in Yakuza. Ever been to a Pachinko parlour? You don’t get money on site. Instead you trade balls for a prize or receipt then take that prize or receipt down the street and exchange it for cash. Done it many times. It’s just a way around gambling laws really. Same thing is reflected in Yakuza and Shenmue III.

Personally speaking that was the least of Shenmue III’s issues for me.