Shenmue 3 fight engine

[Zhenmue]

Ok what do you guys think of it

I personally am not a fan as I didn't find it compelling or exiting like in the 1st 2 games i basically found out I could spam like 2 or 3 moves over and over and win it just felt like I wasn't actually controlling anything

It especially feels week when facing multiple enemies like at the end

" NO SPOILERS ITS SAFE TO READ ON"

when you face a whole lot of guys and they go down with one hit you just hit and run hit and run hit and run done something that was ment to be epic and exiting was just kinda rubbish

Overall I mostly really liked the game but was really not feeling the fight engine and I think if/when they make 4 I think this system needs to be scrapped in faver of something like the 1st 2 games or atleast like the Yakuza games give us the counter and throw moves back

I get the impression you knows the fighting isnt great but atleast functional I will give it that it didn't feel broken just not verry interesting I hope they do something better in the next game and I understand that they didn't have to money to do amazing fights and I won't fault them for doing something functional but simple this time but I do feel this needs to be corrected in the next game

 

[Budgiecat]

Ok what do you guys think of it

I personally am not a fan as I didn't find it compelling or exiting like in the 1st 2 games i basically found out I could spam like 2 or 3 moves over and over and win it just felt like I wasn't actually controlling anything

It especially feels week when facing multiple enemies like at the end

" NO SPOILERS ITS SAFE TO READ ON"

when you face a whole lot of guys and they go down with one hit you just hit and run hit and run hit and run done something that was ment to be epic and exiting was just kinda rubbish

Overall I mostly really liked the game but was really not feeling the fight engine and I think if/when they make 4 I think this system needs to be scrapped in faver of something like the 1st 2 games or atleast like the Yakuza games give us the counter and throw moves back

I get the impression you knows the fighting isnt great but atleast functional I will give it that it didn't feel broken just not verry interesting I hope they do something better in the next game and I understand that they didn't have to money to do amazing fights and I won't fault them for doing something functional but simple this time but I do feel this needs to be corrected in the next game

There's no way they woulda went back to the first 2 games anyway even if Sega was involved. It would have been a version closer to VF5 with probably the same mobility you see now in this game. The VF3 engine was still linear in movement like VF1 and VF2 before it; what made it 3 dimensional was the fact it had the dodge button which Shenmue 1&2 emulated,
When the series moved to VF4 it got rid of that dodge mechanic and went with a more Tekken 3 like evade using the arcade stick, but even that the game still, like Tekken, focused mostly on linear movement. This game is true three dimensional much like how Tobal #1 and Ergheiz were. Followed by games like Soul Calibur with its 8 way walking system and Urban Reign.
The fighting game community hates change though which is why most fighting games are stuck in the past. Yu is a developer that innovates. Shenmue was always supposed to BE an RPG. The thing is it originally was a concept based on VF as originally Akira of VF was supposed to be the main protagonist. That is why Shenmue used the VF engine.
However, battles aside, the game was more point and click adventure than a traditional RPG. The limitations of the Dreamcast with its GD-Roms, the fact that the team was attempting the impossible back then on limited hardware, making up new technology as they went along with the development of the game just so things could run right in the game. gave them less freedom overall to fully incorporate RPG elements into the game.
Now 20 years later the technology is there but the budget and backing of Sega, which has the dev team that helped make the game (AM2) under their wing which Yu could not use.
There's also the fact Yu's team had to learn how to use UE4 in a short time as well instead of being in tune with an engine they made their own much like Team Yakuza is with their Dragon Engine.
Not sure why throws couldnt make it in. At first I thought it was because of Sega, but I see that older Shenmue attack moves still made it into the game so now Im not sure.
That said, there are certain design ideas in the combat that I think actually works better.
Button mashing on the old games was due to the fighting engine of VF which is easy to learn but hard to master. VF has so many 'hidden' button directional commands that most people when they first play the game, just...button mash.
This was then also the case with Shenmue since it was using its engine.
Now, with this engine, there is not only a mini self learning tutorial (when you spar) which shows you the move commands on the fly, but theres now also a hot key (R2) where all you have to do is press that. Moves are put together in groups of four which can be scrolled via R1 or L1, and dodging is now tied into the basic analog movement. There is also a slowdown Matrix like mode that is activated once your life meter is in the yellow and you double tap the analog stick to the right or left to activate it. A high risk high reward desperation evade counter move.
Sound effects for the hits also sound more pronounced now. Characters talk trash in battle.
Depending on what difficulty you set (I play on Hard or Normal). the enemy will block more.
Blocking on your part works but evasion works better as blocks still take some kinda damage.

In any case, without Sega and AM2, they could not use the VF engine, but perhaps now they didnt need to.

 

[Paulisdead18]

After getting used to it and utilizing it fully in Niaowu, I like it. It's rewarding if you figure out effective combos and tie the "shortcut" to hard to execute moves, and then memorize easier ones for use. It gets great when you realize what moves are mainly used to knockback and stun, which is especially effective in multi-person fights too.

 

[Zhenmue]

Oh I get why they couldn't use it the same engine I just didnt like what they did with this engine the vf engine was so much more Interesting to me and like you say all the subtle moves you could use was verry in depth and worked so well as yea you could button mash but you could also go deeper and get a whole lot out of it larning the moves.even to the extent one would gain somewhat of a emotanal connection with some of the moves especially since some had a story behind them

It this new engine I didn't get that feel of exitment or rush from fighting I was often just bored During the fights and the cheap way it looked when the enemy blocked was just like hitting a wall it reminded me of that PS2 wolverine game where the enemies had this over used blocking where no matter what you do to them or where you hit them they just stand there in 1&2 your limbs would bounce of the enemy and looked a more real

when Ryu blocks I guess he looks better than the enemy doese I guess.

But yea it just didn't work for me I'm afraid and I do hope they come up with something more compelling in 4 I know they can't use vf or dragon engine unless sega gets back on board and I will say this new fight engine wasn't broken but just boring imo it really did t work with multiple enemies ether I'd often just knock one down pummel the other knock him down as the other gets up rince and repeat

I dont mean to bash the game as I did really enjoy my time with it but the fight engine was such a letdown to me and I went in with low expectations in this department to begin with

 

[Crimson]

I actually like this system more. I'm playing the game on hard difficulty and it's pretty rewarding. The Yellow Tiger destroys me though, lol

 

[Gjb1985]

I give the fighting 7/10 1 VS 1. With multiple opponente it's terrible and I give the original ones 10/10

 

[Budgiecat]

Oh I get why they couldn't use it the same engine I just didnt like what they did with this engine the vf engine was so much more Interesting to me and like you say all the subtle moves you could use was verry in depth and worked so well as yea you could button mash but you could also go deeper and get a whole lot out of it larning the moves.even to the extent one would gain somewhat of a emotanal connection with some of the moves especially since some had a story behind them

It this new engine I didn't get that feel of exitment or rush from fighting I was often just bored During the fights and the cheap way it looked when the enemy blocked was just like hitting a wall it reminded me of that PS2 wolverine game where the enemies had this over used blocking where no matter what you do to them or where you hit them they just stand there in 1&2 your limbs would bounce of the enemy and looked a more real

when Ryu blocks I guess he looks better than the enemy doese I guess.

But yea it just didn't work for me I'm afraid and I do hope they come up with something more compelling in 4 I know they can't use vf or dragon engine unless sega gets back on board and I will say this new fight engine wasn't broken but just boring imo it really did t work with multiple enemies ether I'd often just knock one down pummel the other knock him down as the other gets up rince and repeat

I dont mean to bash the game as I did really enjoy my time with it but the fight engine was such a letdown to me and I went in with low expectations in this department to begin with

How much actually did you really invest in using this engine though because in my case, I played 3 full in-game days of tournament fighting at Rose Garden in order to achieve 500,000 tokens trophy. That alone pushed me to understand the engine more and a good majority of 'getting good' at it involved not really just blocking, but evading and getting at your opponents blind side and then hit stunning them with knockback moves and combinations.

Thats actually what VF3 did because of its unique dodge button that was taken out when VF4 and VF5 came.

This might also be why out of all the VF's, VF3 still has a loyal following in the FGC in Japan despite the years of it being considered 'the black sheep' of the series due to uneven platforms which can invite unfair advantages from an opponent.
But my argument for that was always 'well thats your fault for letting yourself be exploited and caught in a bad area instead of strafing around your opponent when necessary'.
This is something many people in FGC dont get. They want things traditional at all times and familiar because god forbid they have to get out of their comfort zone.
This is what stagnates and stifles the evolution of fighting games.
Seichi Ishii created the game engine for VF
He then created the game engine for Tekken.
So the two series are intrinsically linked.
This is why I always asked Harada to put a VF rep in Tekken 7 as a guest.
If anyone deserves to be a guest character its a VF character because if there wasnt a VF, there'd BE no Tekken.
This is something Team Ninja of the Dead or Alive series understood.
Which is why VF were available as guests in DoA5
It was them honoring their roots and inspiration to make DoA
Harada doesnt get this. He instead wants goofy anime like characters, gender swapped waifus, and guests from stuff that should never be involved with Tekken aka Walking Dead and FF XV (the latter woulda fit Soul Calibur better and the former woulda fit MK11 better)
So getting back to Shenmue: yeah as I mentioned before: if Sega was involved in this with AM2, they wouldnt have gone back to VF3 engine. They would have used VF4/VF5 style because that was their evolution of the series.
Now with Yu involved, it probably still would have had the mobility this games engine has because that was supposed to be the next stage of evolution for 3D fighters: mobility.
But like I said, the FGC hates evolution which is why VF4/VF5 went back to a more traditional approach; flat environments, no dodge button and minimal 3D side step movement ala Tekken 3 and 5 and up (Tekken 4 had more mobility but like VF3, that game was met with a lot of criticism so they dialed back a lot of its newer ideas)
Seichi Ishii btw went on after Tekken to make Tobal #1 which evolved the sense of 3D movement in fighting games before Tekken 3 and VF3 were made and incorporated actual 3D movement.
Only, moving in Tobal #1 and Tobal 2 in terms of 3D movement was much more fluid
it also had a deeper grappling system.
I dont know what became of Seichi Ishii and his Dream Factory company.
Perhaps Yu should have seeked him out.
Regardless, at the end of the day, yeah Yu didnt have him, didnt have Sega, didnt have AM2, but he is still the one who came up with the concepts of VF, and as such, to me at least, his ideas is what I expected to see in this game; an evolution of those concepts on what a 3D fighter should be which is you know, actual 3D mobility.
Something most 3D fighting games (non arena style), have failed to evolve into this gen because of the FGC holding them back.

 

[Toua77]

Took a while for me to get it, but I love. It feels like Tekken-lite with a bit of Virtua Fighter to me.

Ryo can continuously string all of his moves into his other moves for potential big combos. Some moves have high/low crush qualities. For example if an opponent tries a low sweep on Ryo if you do tornado kick Ryo will actually jump over their low kick. Or if an opponent is trying to roundhouse kick or punch Ryo, Ryo can do his ground sweep or time mud spider correctly it'll go under their kick and punches. They also have wall splats and I'm pretty sure there's some kind of counter-hit stagger state. I'd love to talk to whoever did the fighting to tell me where they're drawing the influences from.

The one thing it needs is the ability to pull up the skill book move list in sparring. It's a hell of a lot of stuff to remember. They can touch up some animations and the body-to-body interactions a bit, but I think that's down to the budget. You need 2 person mo-cap to do it properly in a 3D game, and it can get pricey.

When they add throws, proper counters, and parries back the system will be crazy deep. On the level of a true fighting game experience. I'm getting way more mileage than I thought I would when I first heard there would only be strike moves.

 

[Toua77]

Seichi Ishii created the game engine for VF
He then created the game engine for Tekken.
So the two series are intrinsically linked.
This is why I always asked Harada to put a VF rep in Tekken 7 as a guest.
If anyone deserves to be a guest character its a VF character because if there wasnt a VF, there'd BE no Tekken.
This is something Team Ninja of the Dead or Alive series understood.
Which is why VF were available as guests in DoA5
It was them honoring their roots and inspiration to make DoA
Harada doesnt get this. He instead wants goofy anime like characters, gender swapped waifus, and guests from stuff that should never be involved with Tekken aka Walking Dead and FF XV (the latter woulda fit Soul Calibur better and the former woulda fit MK11 better)

Harada and Suzuki are good friends. There's actually an easter egg of sorts involving a certain fighter at the Rose Garden.

Rose Garden fighter

Spoiler

Hopefully we get Ryo or a VF character in a Tekken 7 DLC to return this little favor.

 

[Ren]

I think the issue was license issues?
That is why we didn't get Sega toy capsules, VF engine information?/permission and no Virtua fighter in the game.
The engine is a downgrade through, I read that Unreal engine is not good for fighting games and games build on it have issues.

 

[FuK-San]

I think the issue was license issues?
That is why we didn't get Sega toy capsules, VF engine information?/permission and no Virtua fighter in the game.
The engine is a downgrade through, I read that Unreal engine is not good for fighting games and games build on it have issues.

Pretty sure MK11 and injustice run on Unreal engine.

Anyway, my only issue with the fighting engine is the feedback animations...They’re pretty terrible. I hope if S4 gets made, they actually have actual mocapping done with actors reacting to certain moves. You can almost tell they had someone in the office do that “fall on my tailbone, then lay flat on my back” animation.

 

[Ren]

Pretty sure MK11 and injustice run on Unreal engine.

Anyway, my only issue with the fighting engine is the feedback animations...They’re pretty terrible. I hope if S4 gets made, they actually have actual mocapping done with actors reacting to certain moves. You can almost tell they had someone in the office do that “fall on my tailbone, then lay flat on my back” animation.

Yes it was not the same High Quality that the first 2 games have.
I bet Shenmue I & II motion capture budget was bigger than Shenmue 3 alone!

 

[danielmann861]

I read that Unreal engine is not good for fighting games and games build on it have issues.

Tekken 7 was built on Unreal. And I’d argue it’s the best of the series so far.

 

[Henry Spencer]

Great system for 1 on 1 but crowd control is frustrating. They need to bring throws back for 4.

 

[sbkodama]

Dragon ball fighter z and soulcalibur VI use ue4 too.

My main issue with the fighting is the delay between the press of buttons and the moves, especially the ones using 3 or 4 buttons, and the hit and fall animations which lack impact.

 

[Ren]

Dragon ball fighter z and soulcalibur VI use ue4 too.

My main issue with the fighting is the delay between the press of buttons and the moves, especially the ones using 3 or 4 buttons, and the hit and fall animations which lack impact.

Yes this is the issue I read about before.

 

[Zhenmue]

How much actually did you really invest in using this engine though because in my case, I played 3 full in-game days of tournament fighting at Rose Garden in order to achieve 500,000 tokens trophy. That alone pushed me to understand the engine more and a good majority of 'getting good' at it involved not really just blocking, but evading and getting at your opponents blind side and then hit stunning them with knockback moves and combinations.

Thats actually what VF3 did because of its unique dodge button that was taken out when VF4 and VF5 came.

This might also be why out of all the VF's, VF3 still has a loyal following in the FGC in Japan despite the years of it being considered 'the black sheep' of the series due to uneven platforms which can invite unfair advantages from an opponent.
But my argument for that was always 'well thats your fault for letting yourself be exploited and caught in a bad area instead of strafing around your opponent when necessary'.
This is something many people in FGC dont get. They want things traditional at all times and familiar because god forbid they have to get out of their comfort zone.
This is what stagnates and stifles the evolution of fighting games.
Seichi Ishii created the game engine for VF
He then created the game engine for Tekken.
So the two series are intrinsically linked.
This is why I always asked Harada to put a VF rep in Tekken 7 as a guest.
If anyone deserves to be a guest character its a VF character because if there wasnt a VF, there'd BE no Tekken.
This is something Team Ninja of the Dead or Alive series understood.
Which is why VF were available as guests in DoA5
It was them honoring their roots and inspiration to make DoA
Harada doesnt get this. He instead wants goofy anime like characters, gender swapped waifus, and guests from stuff that should never be involved with Tekken aka Walking Dead and FF XV (the latter woulda fit Soul Calibur better and the former woulda fit MK11 better)
So getting back to Shenmue: yeah as I mentioned before: if Sega was involved in this with AM2, they wouldnt have gone back to VF3 engine. They would have used VF4/VF5 style because that was their evolution of the series.
Now with Yu involved, it probably still would have had the mobility this games engine has because that was supposed to be the next stage of evolution for 3D fighters: mobility.
But like I said, the FGC hates evolution which is why VF4/VF5 went back to a more traditional approach; flat environments, no dodge button and minimal 3D side step movement ala Tekken 3 and 5 and up (Tekken 4 had more mobility but like VF3, that game was met with a lot of criticism so they dialed back a lot of its newer ideas)
Seichi Ishii btw went on after Tekken to make Tobal #1 which evolved the sense of 3D movement in fighting games before Tekken 3 and VF3 were made and incorporated actual 3D movement.
Only, moving in Tobal #1 and Tobal 2 in terms of 3D movement was much more fluid
it also had a deeper grappling system.
I dont know what became of Seichi Ishii and his Dream Factory company.
Perhaps Yu should have seeked him out.
Regardless, at the end of the day, yeah Yu didnt have him, didnt have Sega, didnt have AM2, but he is still the one who came up with the concepts of VF, and as such, to me at least, his ideas is what I expected to see in this game; an evolution of those concepts on what a 3D fighter should be which is you know, actual 3D mobility.
Something most 3D fighting games (non arena style), have failed to evolve into this gen because of the FGC holding them back.

The extent of my investment in the engine was I had a fight with every enemy in the game as well as got the grand prize in the rose garden fighting arena and did a few more fights there to clock up some tokens

The part of it that I felt was the most underwhelming for was once we got to the castle seige that fight along the bridge with the crowd of enemies , it was built up to be like this epic moment but it just fell flat all I had to do was mudspider next mudspider nex mudspider next mudspider next mudspider next look back ren still struggling I'll run back and give him a hand oh and invisible wall won't let me ok I'll just move on then it visually looked stupid and wasn't interesting to play

The fights in the arena was okish like I say functional but wasn't anywhere near as interesting as or exiting as shenmue 1&2 vf Tekken soul caliber dead or alive streets of rage golden axe or diehard arcade .

It just was a huge step down to me like I say I was expecting it to be and I was sort of working with it but the moment it sets up a fight as somthing dramatic it just didn't work that is likely why the final henchmen before the last fight was delt with in a cinematic QTE as more of that repetitive fighting would of just felt like to much


As for the wise cracks the fighters would say during a fight shenmue 1 and 2 also had this more during sparing but it did do it

Which brings me to the next part sparing yea I agree with you in concept that sparing with a person was better that spamming moves in a carpark but only in theory as that's basically all you did in the spar sessions in 3 anyway with its awkward button prompt that feel inaccurate and delayed especially with moves over 3 button presses a d it all just looks kinda goofy with the spar partner doing his I'm a brick wall block it actually showcased the weaker aspects on the animation

Btw I'm not trolling or anything or trying to prove you wrong and if you liked the fight system that's cool but for me it felt like a huge step down and compromised which I completely understand how and why that is and can except it but I really really hope they get more money and time to ether do a lot of work on this current engine or scrap it for somthing more inline with vf Tekken or Yakuza

 

[Budgiecat]

The extent of my investment in the engine was I had a fight with eBay enemy in the game as well as got the grand prize in the rose garden fighting arena and did a few more fights there to clock up some tokens

The part of it that I felt was the most underwhelming for was once we got to the castle seige that fight along the bridge with the crowd of enemies , it was built up to be like this epic moment but it just fell flat all I had to do was mudspider next mudspider nex mudspider next mudspider next mudspider next look back ten still struggling I'll run back and give him a hand oh and invisible wall won't let me ok I'll just move on then it visually looked stupid and wasn't interesting to play

The fights in the arena was okish like I say functional but wasn't anywhere near as interesting as or exiting as shenmue 1&2 vf Tekken soul caliber dead or alive streets of rage golden axe or diehard arcade .

It just was a huge step down to me like I say I was expecting it to be and I was sort of working with it but the moment it sets up a fight as somthing dramatic it just didn't work that is likely why Lan di's henchmen was delt with in a cinematic QTE as more of that repetitive fighting would of just felt like to much


As for the wise crack the fighters would say during a fight shenmue 1 and 2 also had this more during sparing but it did do it

Which brings me to the next part sparing yea I agree with you in concept that sparing with a person was better that spamming moves in a carpark but only in theory as that's basically all you did in the spar sessions in 3 anyway with its awkward button prompt that feel inaccurate and delayed especially with moves over 3 button presses a d it all just looks kinda goofy with the spar partner doing his I'm a brick wall block it actually showcased the weaker aspects on the animation

Btw I'm not trolling or anything or trying to prove you wrong and if you liked the fight system that's cool but for me it felt like a huge step down and compromised which I completely understand how and why that is and can except it but I really really hope they get more money and time to ether do a lot of work on this current engine or scrap it for somthing more inline with vf Tekken or Yakuza

They coulda hired Dream Factory as I've mentioned before but I dunno where that company is now they've been dead for years

 

[Paulisdead18]

Great system for 1 on 1 but crowd control is frustrating. They need to bring throws back for 4.

I've actually even figured out how to handle crowds too, figure out good quick combos that focus on knockdowns, I ended up doing the

Spoiler

initial two fights in the Red Snake's Hideout (no idea if there's more, i literally only just passed that spot story wise so don't tell me if there's another). First alone and secondly with Ren, they were a piece of cake when I started with an opener like Tornado Kick, followed by some quick two-button combo moves and Counter Elbow Assault.

 

[ratrace]

3 combat i prefer than 1 and 2.
Easier to pickup and you can actually pull of your moves.