Shenmue 3 fight engine

[danielmann861]

I’ve been periodically changing the difficulty to hardest on my second playthrough. I do really enjoy the combat in this game for what ever reason. Been trying to figure out what move beats what and what you and can and can’t punish. I find the game rewards keeping your cool, keeping your distance and being mindful of the guard meter the most. I tend to look at the guard meter now almost as an ATB gauge.

It’s not the deepest fighting system I’ve played (it’s got nothing on VF) but it’s fun for the most part. I’ve had a good time playing with it.

 

[Budgiecat]

I’ve been periodically changing the difficulty to hardest on my second playthrough. I do really enjoy the combat in this game for what ever reason the more I dig into it. Been trying to figure out what move beats what and what you and can and can’t punish. I find the game rewards keeping your cool, keeping your distance and being mindful of the guard meter the most. I tend to look at the guard meter now almost as an ATB gauge.

It’s not the deepest fighting system I’ve played (it’s got nothing on VF) but it’s fun for the most part. I’ve had a good time playing with it.

I always found it odd how Tekken players would often scoff at the idea of the series moving to a more 3D intuitive movement like Soul Calibur's 8 way walking system which this game seems to closer to movement wise outside its emphasis on its 3/4 camera view.
I always figured thats where 3D fighters would eventually evolve to. (outside those arena fighters). But they've mostly been stuck to a 2.5D fighting style gameplay with 3D evasion

 

[danielmann861]

I always found it odd how Tekken players would often scoff at the idea of the series moving to a more 3D intuitive movement like Soul Calibur's 8 way walking system which this game seems to closer to movement wise outside its emphasis on its 3/4 camera view.
I always figured thats where 3D fighters would eventually evolve to. (outside those arena fighters). But they've mostly been stuck to a 2.5D fighting style gameplay with 3D evasion

think that’s just more so a case of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” syndrome.

see the reaction to Virtua Fighter 3 from some VF fans (some VF fans hated the evade button; notice it never returned in 4 and 5)

or look at Tekken 4. The one many consider to be the black sheep as it did really try a heavy focus on 3D movement.

I think it really is “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it“ syndrome.

That said, as much as I admired Tekken 4...wall punishes were REALLY broken in that game and quite to easy exploit if you knew what you were doing.

 

[Budgiecat]

think that’s just more so a case of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” syndrome.

see the reaction to Virtua Fighter 3 from some VF fans (some VF fans hated the evade button; notice it never returned in 4 and 5)

or look at Tekken 4. The one many consider to be the black sheep as it did really try a heavy focus on 3D movement.

I think it really is “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it“ syndrome.

That said, as much as I admired Tekken 4...wall punishes were REALLY broken in that game and quite to easy exploit if you knew what you were doing.

The problem is though that they arent consistent with that proverb

Tekken 7 now has wall punishes right? And a few other things which were taken from Tekken 4 but dropped in Tekken 5,6,TTT2 and Revolution. Not to mention Rage Arts and such now which I dont see being removed.

Only thing I think will never return is uneven platforms which VF3 and T4 shared.

Plus it just also invites developer stagnancy and complacency. Perhaps laziness too.


And yeah I much preferred Tekken 4's 3D movement. Even Tekken 3's movement particularly Xioayu's had more mobility than current Tekken. I just hate the way Korean back dash looks in motion. Like an Epilepsy seizure.

Also interesting to note: VF3 actually has a more active loyal following in Japanese arcade scene to this day than VF4 and VF5 do there

 

[Ren]

I manage to beat white tiger on the second day with only level 2. But could not beat Gold tiger.
It seems in the demo difficult was easy and not normal. Since in Demo I could beat Gold tiger in level 2.
As well they changed some things. I could not pull the combo by linking 2 moves like I used to do to him.
As well Elbow Assault doesn't have as much effect on him as it used to in the demo.
Manage to lower his HP to half but then he destroy me. The problem with this game is Block seems to be not much helpful.
Even if you are blocking gold tiger will eat your HP away.
I message someone who told me same issue with block he is playing in nightmare mode. Block seems to be not much useful in this game as hitting evading in the past games.

 

[danielmann861]

Even if you are blocking gold tiger will eat your HP away.
I message someone who told me same issue with block he is playing in nightmare mode. Block seems to be not much useful in this game as hitting evading in the past games.

If you hold onto block the entire time and let the guard meter deplete entirely, their strings will eat HP. I've been trying lately to not hold block and try to use block carefully on certain attacks to start landing whiff punishes...works for certain moves...other strings you can catch.

I find holding on to the block trigger is useless in the game. The best tactics I found is keep distance, mind your guard and look for openings to either catch them and knock them down or whiff punish them.

But yeah, holding the block button will end badly. You kind of have to use it sparingly and not be overly reliant on it.

 

[Ren]

If you hold onto block the entire time and let the guard meter deplete entirely, their strings will eat HP. I've been trying lately to not hold block and try to use block carefully on certain attacks to start landing whiff punishes...works for certain moves...other strings you can catch.

I find holding on to the block trigger is useless in the game. The best tactics I found is keep distance, mind your guard and look for openings to either catch them and knock them down or whiff punish them.

But yeah, holding the block button will end badly. You kind of have to use it sparingly and not be overly reliant on it.

The issue I have is that even if the block bar is not empty I still get massive damage.
Keeping distance should be away but sometimes enemy becomes too aggressive and even if you dash backwards they still catch you. I guess best option is dash and immediately counter with an attack.

 

[Budgiecat]

The issue I have is that even if the block bar is not empty I still get massive damage.
Keeping distance should be away but sometimes enemy becomes too aggressive and even if you dash backwards they still catch you. I guess best option is dash and immediately counter with an attack.

dont dash backwards. dash to the side.
double tap to the side if you're in the yellow for Matrix slow down counter ability which grants 100% hit

 

[Ren]

dont dash backwards. dash to the side.
double tap to the side if you're in the yellow for Matrix slow down counter ability which grants 100% hit

The problem with slow down events is that you can't block, so if you fail to evade you will either lose the fight or be heavily damaged.
The purpose of dash backward is to keep as much distance from enemy possible.

By the way, anyone knows how to run in the game during fights? Since NPC seems to be able to.

 

[Sh3ppy]

If I’m not mistaken, Gold Tiger changes his tactics once you get his health down half way. Evading sideways and hitting him sideways or on his back was the easiest way I found to defeat him. He’s quite aggressive in that he doesn’t let up on the attack much at all.

 

[Budgiecat]

The purpose of dash backward is to keep as much distance from enemy possible.

sure but you cant counter as effectively as you could by dashing to the opponents side or back

 

[Yokosuka]

Back in 2012, after playing Dead Or Alive 5, Yu Suzuki was already obsessed by the idea of making combat focused on tactic rather technique.

Yu Suzuki and Yosuke Hayashi meet up, talk 'Dead or Alive 5' and fighting-game shop

"We consciously feel that we need to have the game where the most beautiful characters always show up"

www.polygon.com

Although Suzuki admits to not exactly being a hardcore fighter fan any longer, he does feel the need to expand the genre a little. "This is something I really felt after picking up a fighter for the first time in a while," he said, "but with games like these that require precise button timing, it feels really great when you get it just right. Of course, on the other hand, if you don't have that skill, that's a pretty quick impetus to giving up on the game. I'd like to have it so more people can feel this sort of excitement, but if you don't have the skill set for it, it just winds up becoming a stressful experience. I think it'd be nice if we could make a game that tries to reduce the frequency of people losing because they couldn't execute the skill they wanted to; something that focuses more on strategy than technique."

Now, problem is: how to make it satisfying enough?

 

[danielmann861]

The issue I have is that even if the block bar is not empty I still get massive damage.
Keeping distance should be away but sometimes enemy becomes too aggressive and even if you dash backwards they still catch you. I guess best option is dash and immediately counter with an attack.

It depends on what they're throwing out at you as well...there are strong and light attacks in the game. I can't say I've had the problem you've had (or I haven't noticed it) but I've been mostly keeping my distance and letting them throw out attacks and catching them (a cheap tactic but it works for this game)...I've found that keeping distance and not letting them get on top of you is really the best method for this game...especially higher ranked/leveled AI that just loves to go to town on you

Although i do notice the AI likes to go Super Saiyan when you get their health down. Especially the higher ranked fighters...they'll just go to town with string after string and it will eat at you because your block meter will be null after the first string.

The block meter seems to allow for one input string before you have to back up and keep your distance and wait for it to recharge.

There are some strings that can be beaten with jab...I know that one of the roundhose kicks the AI loves to spam can be crush on block with L2+Triange -> Cross

Other can be beaten by simple jabs on block. The jab, jab, kick combo works to punish to some strings on block.

 

[Dan]

On one hand I miss shenmue 1 and 2 virtual fighter combat with the deep extensions within moves, counters, throws, and more. But on the other, after playing around with the combat a lot, I've been enjoying the combat a lot the more I practice at the Martial hall and certain areas in the story. There are a lot of moves that work well together in one combo string that makes it fun to find and piece together. I wish block and dodge were more reliable and imo they should have got rid of the meter and instead have it like sekiro where tapping block when they hit would block, would make the fights more engaging but they do their part still for the most so its no big deal. I just beat all the Duan in Niaowu martial hall on the hardest difficulty without taking damage. Been practicing the dodge a lot on the gold dragon and imo he is one of the best opponents to practice with because he hits fast and breaks through a full block with most attacks which makes block only useful once before having to refill. Dodge practice works great against him too to get used to dodging accurately and timing.

all 10 opponents hardest difficulty no damage

some bonus combos I filmed:

5 hit combo

6 hit combo

 

[danielmann861]

On one hand I miss shenmue 1 and 2 virtual fighter combat with the deep extensions within moves, counters, throws, and more. But on the other, after playing around with the combat a lot, I've been enjoying the combat a lot the more I practice at the Martial hall and certain areas in the story. There are a lot of moves that work well together in one combo string that makes it fun to find and piece together. I wish block and dodge were more reliable and imo they should have got rid of the meter and instead have it like sekiro where tapping block when they hit would block, would make the fights more engaging but they do their part still for the most so its no big deal. I just beat all the Duan in Niaowu martial hall on the hardest difficulty without taking damage. Been practicing the dodge a lot on the gold dragon and imo he is one of the best opponents to practice with because he hits fast and breaks through a full block with most attacks which makes block only useful once before having to refill. Dodge practice works great against him too to get used to dodging accurately and timing.

all 10 opponents hardest difficulty no damage

some bonus combos I filmed:

5 hit combo

6 hit combo

Damn! I’m impressed

 

[Ren]

It depends on what they're throwing out at you as well...there are strong and light attacks in the game. I can't say I've had the problem you've had (or I haven't noticed it) but I've been mostly keeping my distance and letting them throw out attacks and catching them (a cheap tactic but it works for this game)...I've found that keeping distance and not letting them get on top of you is really the best method for this game...especially higher ranked/leveled AI that just loves to go to town on you

Although i do notice the AI likes to go Super Saiyan when you get their health down. Especially the higher ranked fighters...they'll just go to town with string after string and it will eat at you because your block meter will be null after the first string.

The block meter seems to allow for one input string before you have to back up and keep your distance and wait for it to recharge.

There are some strings that can be beaten with jab...I know that one of the roundhose kicks the AI loves to spam can be crush on block with L2+Triange -> Cross

Other can be beaten by simple jabs on block. The jab, jab, kick combo works to punish to some strings on block.

"problem you've had (or I haven't noticed it)"
Well you just basically explained in detail the problems I have had.

I wish block was more like Halo energy shield. That you would get no damage when blocking.
Even better would prefer the evade of the past games where you not only move away and dash back but would throw enemy off balance when properly timed.

They could had made slow down as trigger every time you properly press "block" button. This would solve the problem of the game not having counter since every move would be a counter.

 

[Ren]

On one hand I miss shenmue 1 and 2 virtual fighter combat with the deep extensions within moves, counters, throws, and more. But on the other, after playing around with the combat a lot, I've been enjoying the combat a lot the more I practice at the Martial hall and certain areas in the story. There are a lot of moves that work well together in one combo string that makes it fun to find and piece together. I wish block and dodge were more reliable and imo they should have got rid of the meter and instead have it like sekiro where tapping block when they hit would block, would make the fights more engaging but they do their part still for the most so its no big deal. I just beat all the Duan in Niaowu martial hall on the hardest difficulty without taking damage. Been practicing the dodge a lot on the gold dragon and imo he is one of the best opponents to practice with because he hits fast and breaks through a full block with most attacks which makes block only useful once before having to refill. Dodge practice works great against him too to get used to dodging accurately and timing.

all 10 opponents hardest difficulty no damage

some bonus combos I filmed:

5 hit combo

6 hit combo

I like those clothes a lot! Now if only Ryo could change hairstyle as well!

 

[fert]

i have to say im really disliking the combat in this game, such a shame too cuz i loved shenmue 1 and 2, i hit them in this game and they dont get stunned and hit me while im hitting them, i can see why everyone just cheese and picks up that lame shin kick and spams shin kick to win.. so many years for this, such a waste

 

[Ren]

i have to say im really disliking the combat in this game, such a shame too cuz i loved shenmue 1 and 2, i hit them in this game and they dont get stunned and hit me while im hitting them, i can see why everyone just cheese and picks up that lame shin kick and spams shin kick to win.. so many years for this, such a waste

Well, Shenmue had Crawl Cyclone.
Which could be spammed and exploited.

 

[Dan]

Damn! I’m impressed

Thank you!

I like those clothes a lot! Now if only Ryo could change hairstyle as well!

Me too, I honestly thought nothing would compare with the OG outfit, but the kung fu wear looks so badass. I was wondering the same if in the future we can change his hairstyle or perhaps he can wear a hat lol!