Nothing hard about it. The series is pure adventure, therefore niche. The games don't provide players instant gratification, contrary to games that focus mainly on adrenaline pumping action, the easy sense of excitement and easier to commit to.
This doesn't answer the question of this thread. There are a lot of niche games, there are games that are unpopular, neither of these things generates the backlash and sometimes double standards that a lot people hold Shenmue to.
AGAIN, the question is not whether Shenmue is popular or successful, but why is it hated, why does it have such an unfair backlash against it.
You only think of the traditional point and click games as the ones with static backgrounds and literal onscreen mouse pointer interaction, but they were only that way because of the technological limitations of the time. The genre is still alive today, and they are not as popular because other genres incorporated their best elements into their own and so pure adventure games became an acquired taste. Still, if you look carefully you will find that the genre still produces some of the best games to be played today like The Talos Principle and Outer Wilds.
Yes I agree with you. I've been saying that adventure games have evolved and merged with other genres.
By traditional adventure games I mean like the ones LucasArts and Sierra were making in the 90's. Large Dialogue trees and inventory puzzles, that sort of thing. Of course they still exist, but they are mostly made by indies now.
Anyway, you and I seem to be on the same page.
I'm not blinded by nostalgia as I can put into words why the series works design wise and without resorting to sentimentality or storytelling, while most of your arguments fall into small technical inconveniences. Is the original Resident Evil any less of a masterpiece because of tank controls and bad acting?
Things can become dated. It doesn't lessen their value, but it can lessen their impact on new audiences or make it harder for them to get into.
Ironically, I think Shenmue has aged well from a technological standpoint.
Worse, your arguments always center around story plots and that is no game design at all, and if you don't think that's true then the likes of Citizen Kane and La Dolce Vita would be already videogame masterpieces on the strength of that single quality alone, and maybe put some interactable cutscenes to put the official videogame label on it.
I'm not sure where you saying my arguments always revolve around story, that simply isn't true. If I have come across that way, it's only because of the contexts of the conversations, I'm happy to discuss game design as well.
It's funny you brought up Citizen Kane. I used to think Shenmue was like the CK of games in a way because of how influential it was and how much everyone hated it when it came out. I believed that decades down the line the games would be rediscovered and their influence would be recognized. Sadly, 20 years on and given the topic of this thread that isn't the case.
Also, CK was not lauded for its story but mostly for technological advancements in editing and camera techniques.
Plus you have even trouble defining gaming genres as you posted something along the lines that story pace makes S2 closer to a RPG which makes absolute no sense.
I think you may be confusing me for another poster, I never said Shenmue 2 is closer to an RPG, that was someone else.
That's just your assumption that most didn't play S2 because of S1, specially critics which would be no short of unprofessional, unless show us some proof. Either way even if S1 & 3, the bad ones according to you, didn't exist people would still hate S2 with its still apparent "funny" dialogue and odd camera work, non-action focused mechanics and progression aside from QTEfest interactable cutscenes which is the least action-like design if you look at actual action games. It's still Shenmue. S2 is no Uncharted or Yakuza.
Again, you're conflating me with someone else. I didn't say S1 & 3 were the bad ones, though I do think they are a bit weaker than S2.
As to your point, you may be right. Shenmue 2 didn't have a wide western release, so maybe if it did it would have come under the same scrutiny. Either way I'm not convinced that a lot of people didn't jump ship because they couldn't get into S1.
Not nebulous or hard to classify if you think of their main method of game progression or design. It's only useless in discussion for you that like to focus mainly in story progression in games:
You've completely mischaracterized me, I was actually coming at it from a gameplay perspective, not narrative. It was Budgie who was saying that Uncharted is an adventure game because "you go on an adventure". I was saying it was an action game/action platformer based on the gameplay.
You should maybe evaluate whether you still like videogames anymore, because to me if a game designer tells me that his game's main strength is the story then it's definitely not a game worth playing because I rather watch a film made by an actual film director instead.
So your argument is that games can't tell good stories? That they aren't a narrative medium? I actually like Shenmue when it uses its gameplay to tell the narrative (alongside cutscenes), its what makes it its most powerful.
I have to wonder if you need to evaluate why you like this series? If its an adventure game at its core then its narrative focused, and it obviously is. So if you don't like stories in games, or think film does it better why he hell do you care if this series continues! You want Shenmue 4 to what, play Sega arcade games? you can already do that through an emulator.
I want to add that I've come to this thread to discuss why Shenmue has such a bad legacy, and I have to say I now agree with some other posters that (at least some) of its fanbase is to blame. Your comment is overly hostile for no reason. I've been met with, and seen others post, needlessly hostile comments because some of us are posting very legitimate criticisms of Shenmue on a thread investigating why the broader community hates it.
The apologists on this thread are ridiculous, how dare we insult their god and savior, Shenmue. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. People can love some things about this series and dislike others. it doesn't mean we are not fans.
