Where U think the source of Haters originated from???

[Budgiecat]

I could care less if that's how you feel. That's how I choose to play the game and get the maximum enjoyment out of my time. No other human being would be affected or cheated on whether I decide to save scum or not. It's just me and a computer machine. Anyway, How would you know about how many people used the NPC follow tactic? Any raw data or facts to back up this claim?

You didnt really choose though. You found an exploit which only tells me you felt you had no other choice. An exploit that pretty much is a player highlighting a debatable 'flaw' in the game's design. That you need to subvert normal playthrough by save scumming in order to progress. Thats like a cheat code.

How do I know more people used the NPC follow tactic? Because I've read over the years more people talking about its mechanic rather than saying they just ignored it maybe?

 

[B-Man]

I think Shenmue II is the gold standard of the series. I'd even say it's the greatest open world game of all time. It encapsulates story, pacing, and gameplay almost seamlessly. I enjoyed the hell out of Shenmue I when it first came out, but when the re-releases were here I found it to be tedious to get through. Shenmue III is a worse culprit in that regard. That's not to say I dislike the game, far from it. But when or if we get Shenmue IV, I hope it's as action packed as the second game was.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trash Shenmue II. It may sound that way, but that's only because I'm talking to someone who loves Shenmue II but thinks that the other two games in the series are "fundamentally bad games."

While it is true that Shenmue I is my favorite, I absolutely love Shenmue II as well. But yeah, I think we're on opposite ends of the Shenmue fandom spectrum. Shenmue III is probably my least favorite overall, but there are actually some aspects of it that I like better than Shenmue II (probably because those aspects remind me of Shenmue I).

Basically, I love all three games and each one is special in its own way. I can admit that Shenmue III wasn't perfect, but it was damn impressive what Ys Net was able to accomplish on a shoestring budget.

The pacing, primarily how quickly the plot advances and how many new characters are introduced. It's much closer to an RPG and I'd argue S1 is closer to an adventure game. I don't even know what I'd compare S3 to besides a filler episode of a TV show.


It shares some superficial mechanical similarity with RPGs, yes but I wouldn't compare it to the kind of character progression you get from a real RPG. You play Wario Ware-esque microgames to level up health, it's not exactly Planescape Torment.


Yes and S1's sales reflect that. My entire point is that if S1 and 2 were 1 game and those same people saw the content on offer in S2, the series wouldn't be as widely hated (hence the point of this thread). Because S1 was split and its length padded out, it is far more open to being mocked.


It's certainly possible, especially with the horrible English dub. I just haven't seen any evidence for it since almost all the mocking is at S1 and 3's expense. I know S2 is, shall we say, "quirky".


I feel you. It's more the disconnect that it establishes between Ryo and his environment. If I had to guess, S1 in its original state had only a couple of scenes and probably included the letter from Yuanda Zhu as part of the opening cutscene.


The tone of that trailer, and most of the trailers for the Shenmue games is much more conducive to a martial arts epic than a life simulator, I like the mix but I like it to err on the former, rather than the latter. There's a lot of interesting looking shit in that trailer that I would like to get to before game, I don't know, 7...


Not at all. I didn't like S3 and I consider S1 to be a fatally flawed game. I don't think Shenmue would make a very good movie or anime without dramatically changing it, though I would prefer to see the ending to the story even if it means taking a form other than a game.


I argued why Guilin is necessary for the pacing and that the Hazuki basement is perhaps the best part of the entire series, what do you mean?


As someone who can't look at an elevator without thinking of Shenmue, I totally get this. But there's more to Shenmue than just the detail of the world, interesting things need to happen in it.


Debatable. I certainly see a lot of potential in the story but I can't tell if it's got the goods one way or the other (S3 certainly didn't fill me with confidence). I don't see a reason to continue this series in particular if you're not going to continue the story. If it's gameplay you want then YS could've released a "spiritual successor" and saved a ton of headache.


I'm open to that. I'm here to articulate why I think a lot of people are Shenmue haters as I appear to be one of the few on this forum who consider S1 to suffer from enough flaws to call it a bad game. Though it is greatly enriched after playing S2.


I posted about Shenmue's weird relationship to time in another thread, but I agree with this sentiment depending on the design, I just don't think S1 made a great case for it being necessary.


I won't spoil anything, though I vastly prefer Bailu.

Yes, of course I agree that the story is important and that gameplay isn't the only thing I'm looking for. There has to be a balance. I agree that not enough happened in Shenmue III. There weren't enough story-based fight sequences and the ending was rushed. There also weren't enough memorable characters like in the first two games. And there were some localization issues that led to continuity errors. But you have to consider that concessions had to be made due to the budget. Overall, I had a blast playing it and I think it's a great game. If there is a Shenmue IV, I'm sure that it will be heavier on story now that all the work has been done getting the gameplay systems into place.

I mean, you're on a thread asking why people hate the series...

I think OP was talking about outsiders and didn't expect any posters here to think that the original Shenmue was a bad game though...

I could care less if that's how you feel. That's how I choose to play the game and get the maximum enjoyment out of my time. How would you know about how many people used the NPC follow tactic? Any raw data or facts to back up this claim?

You can play the game any way that you please. But I don't think saying Shenmue III took you longer to earn money save scumming Roll It On Top than Shenmue II did is a fair criticism since the games weren't intended to be played that way by the developers.

 

[iknifaugood]

This is very poor logic.
"It doesnt leave itself open to mockery because reviewers and many gamers ignored it entirely that is why it has more mainstream appeal."

That is indeed very poor logic, good thing I didn't say anything like that.

S3 is closer to what an RPG is. Not S2.

S2 is closer to an RPG in terms of pacing and story (specifically a big budget JRPG like Final Fantasy), not gameplay. S3 has a leveling system. So does Call of Duty; that does not an RPG make. S3 borrows superficial elements from RPGs to artificially pad its length to obfuscate a lack of content.

 

[Budgiecat]

Also I wanna add I never even KNEW what the hell 'save scumming' was until I started to read comments about it in Shenmue 3 posts on other forums and Youtube comments lol I musta been an idiot all these years playing the previous games as intended.
But when I did finally learn what it was, I still didnt use it. Felt cheap. And also, by the time I even learned I needed 2000 yuan for that alcohol for Master Sun? 5 to 7 hours gambling save scumming? lmao I already HAD it anyway due to making money from a trifecta of fishing, gambling and trading in gems, and woodchopping lol. Hell, I didnt even gamble much (I hate gambling in real life. Lost a few friends who are addicted to it)
Then in Niaowu forget it: was piss easy to already have 5000 yuan due to the selling of those books and the Rose Garden tournaments on top of the fishing.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Jim Sterling and Yahtzee would turn on Shenmue 2, hear the voice acting is even worse than it is in 1, find out about Lucky Hit and trash the game even worse than Shenmue 1.

 

[darksniper]

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trash Shenmue II. It may sound that way, but that's only because I'm talking to someone who loves Shenmue II but thinks that the other two games in the series are "fundamentally bad games."

While it is true that Shenmue I is my favorite, I absolutely love Shenmue II as well. But yeah, I think we're on opposite ends of the Shenmue fandom spectrum. Shenmue III is probably my least favorite overall, but there are actually some aspects of it that I like better than Shenmue II (probably because those aspects remind me of Shenmue I).

Basically, I love all three games and each one is special in its own way. I can admit that Shenmue III wasn't perfect, but it was damn impressive what Ys Net was able to accomplish on a shoestring budget.


You can play the game any way that you please. But I don't think saying Shenmue III took you longer to earn money save scumming Roll It On Top than Shenmue II did is a fair criticism since the games weren't intended to be played that way by the developers.

I find it interesting on how many different opinions there is on which Shenmue is their favorite. As I agree with you there are unique elements in all 3 games that stand out from one another. I actually have Shenmue I as my least favorite and II as number one obviously. But in terms of soundtrack and music. Shenmue I is the best one in the series imo.

While Shenmue III wasn't perfect, I will say in terms of content and gameplay, it has the best mini game content out of the bunch and that's saying something. I never got the feeling of being bored and running out of things to do like I did in Yokosuka. Plus getting to know Shenhua and even to a more extent Ryo's personality was something I thoroughly enjoyed and found very heartwarming to say the least.

You're right about Save Scumming not being a fair criticism, but my point still stands. Even if didn't save scum, it still takes much longer to earn money and if you're gambling you still have 2 or 3 steps to make before you get cash in your pocket. It's tedious as hell.

In terms plodding pacing, I don't think Shenmue III is the worst culprit of them all. I thought Yakuza 5 was much more of a plodding mess than this. After playing DDR with Haruka for hours on end, I was just ready to get through the damn story and get the game over with. But that's just me.

 

[Budgiecat]

That is indeed very poor logic, good thing I didn't say anything like that.

thats exactly what you said.

S2 is closer to an RPG in terms of pacing and story (specifically a big budget JRPG like Final Fantasy), not gameplay. S3 has a leveling system. So does Call of Duty; that does not an RPG make. S3 borrows superficial elements from RPGs to artificially pad its length to obfuscate a lack of content.

lol what?
Were are all the random enemy encounters in S2 then? Where are all the boss battles that occur every hour half hour? The gameplay IS a huge factor in 'pacing' in a FF game you cannot leave that out arbitrarily. The "grind" in FF games is a huge component in it and there is NO grind in S2 because its really not an RPG.
S3's grind, since it has no random enemy encounters, is through its martial arts training and in Niaowu, you can grind through that through Rose Garden battles (which earn you tokens, scrolls, and Snake Power drinks) which I found fun. A lot more fun than waiting around for story cutscene events to happen.
You keep harping about story like its the only important factor of the Shenmue games.
Shenmue is not a visual novel
It sounds like that is what you wanted.
Or a book maybe

 

[iknifaugood]

If there is a Shenmue IV, I'm sure that it will be heavier on story now that all the work has been done getting the gameplay systems into place.

Fingers crossed.

I think OP was talking about outsiders and didn't expect any posters here to think that the original Shenmue was a bad game though...

I'm here to provide possible insight. I know that S1 gets a raw deal from outsiders, especially because the series is painted with a broad brush. I'll never understand why people complain about the combat system when at the same time GTA was routinely given perfect scores while having hot garbage for shooting mechanics. However I can sympathize with what people mock about S1 even though it's often unfair and I would never take it to the extremes that they do, especially with regards to the fandom.

That being said I also think that S2 is more intentionally funny than S1, which goes a long way towards what I consider its "mainstream appeal", S1 is often a melancholy, self serious game.

 

[Budgiecat]

You're right about Save Scumming not being a fair criticism, but my point still stands. Even if didn't save scum, it still takes much longer to earn money and if you're gambling you still have 2 or 3 steps to make before you get cash in your pocket. It's tedious as hell.

Its the journey man. Respect the journey. Think about the fun of spending 5 hours traveling through Europe vs 5 hours in a DMV. Its all about the journey not the end destination.
Even in Yakuza 5 lol

 

[Budgiecat]

Fingers crossed.


I'm here to provide possible insight. I know that S1 gets a raw deal from outsiders, especially because the series is painted with a broad brush. I'll never understand why people complain about the combat system when at the same time GTA was routinely given perfect scores while having hot garbage for shooting mechanics. However I can sympathize with what people mock about S1 even though it's often unfair and I would never take it to the extremes that they do, especially with regards to the fandom.

That being said I also think that S2 is more intentionally funny than S1, which goes a long way towards what I consider its "mainstream appeal", S1 is often a melancholy, self serious game.

GTA is an instant gratification game.
You cant get more instant than a gun.

 

[darksniper]

Its the journey man. Respect the journey. Think about the fun of spending 5 hours traveling through Europe vs 5 hours in a DMV. Its all about the journey not the end destination.
Even in Yakuza 5 lol

I hear you. I don't mind grinding when playing an RPG game as that is to be expected. When I played Shenmue II the first time, I actually did beat it the "honest" way so I definitely appreciate the journey. But when the re-releases came out, I couldn't be bothered to do it again as I was trying to get the game completed before III came out.

Then when III came out, I chopped wood for about 3 days and was still broke. I didn't fish at all and I had some herbs, but not enough to make a difference. So I had no other choice but to scum it up as I was ready to get out of Bailu and ready to see the end of the game.

Old habits die hard.

 

[Budgiecat]

I hear you. I don't mind grinding when playing an RPG game as that is to be expected. When I played Shenmue II the first time, I actually did beat it the "honest" way so I definitely appreciate the journey. But when the re-releases came out, I couldn't be bothered to do it again as I was trying to get the game completed before III came out.

Then when III came out, I chopped wood for about 3 days and was still broke. I didn't fish at all and I had some herbs, but not enough to make a difference. So I had no other choice but to scum it up as I was ready to get out of Bailu and ready to see the end of the game.

Old habits die hard.

hmm

surprised you didnt try fishing since it wasnt in the previous games.

Perhaps FF XV and Yakuza and maybe even Nier's fishing turned you off to the idea

 

[B-Man]

Also I wanna add I never even KNEW what the hell 'save scumming' was until I started to read comments about it in Shenmue 3 posts on other forums and Youtube comments lol I musta been an idiot all these years playing the previous games as intended.
But when I did finally learn what it was, I still didnt use it. Felt cheap. And also, by the time I even learned I needed 2000 yuan for that alcohol for Master Sun? 5 to 7 hours gambling save scumming? lmao I already HAD it anyway due to making money from a trifecta of fishing, gambling and trading in gems, and woodchopping lol. Hell, I didnt even gamble much (I hate gambling in real life. Lost a few friends who are addicted to it)
Then in Niaowu forget it: was piss easy to already have 5000 yuan due to the selling of those books and the Rose Garden tournaments on top of the fishing.

Wow, I knew I was forgetting something in my previous post about how much I enjoyed the side activities, mini games, and jobs in Shenmue III. Fishing! Yeah, I enjoyed that as well.

Honestly, I don't think I knew what the term "save scumming" meant either until people started talking about it last year when the games were re-released. I try to do it as little as possible, but I always do it in the Ghost Hall Building since crossing all the planks successfully without a cheat sheet is damn near impossible.

I find it interesting on how many different opinions there is on which Shenmue is their favorite. As I agree with you there are unique elements in all 3 games that stand out from one another. I actually have Shenmue I as my least favorite and II as number one obviously. But in terms of soundtrack and music. Shenmue I is the best one in the series imo.

While Shenmue III wasn't perfect, I will say in terms of content and gameplay, it has the best mini game content out of the bunch and that's saying something. I never got the feeling of being bored and running out of things to do like I did in Yokosuka. Plus getting to know Shenhua and even to a more extent Ryo's personality was something I thoroughly enjoyed and found very heartwarming to say the least.

You're right about Save Scumming not being a fair criticism, but my point still stands. Even if didn't save scum, it still takes much longer to earn money and if you're gambling you still have 2 or 3 steps to make before you get cash in your pocket. It's tedious as hell.

In terms plodding pacing, I don't think Shenmue III is the worst culprit of them all. I thought Yakuza 5 was much more of a plodding mess than this. After playing DDR with Haruka for hours on end, I was just ready to get through the damn story and get the game over with. But that's just me.

That is interesting. I think that I find the soundtracks of the first two games to be on the same par overall. I do love the way Shenmue I uses the FREE music, which changes depending on what's happening in the story rather than the location and seems to reflect Ryo's emotional state. But both games have so many incredible tracks. All of the Guilin music in Shenmue II is so damn beautiful.

That being said I also think that S2 is more intentionally funny than S1, which goes a long way towards what I consider its "mainstream appeal", S1 is often a melancholy, self serious game.

Well yeah, the protagonist's father is murdered in the opening cutscene. There's no doubt that the melancholy and serious tone was intentional. But I think Shenmue I had its fair share of intentional humor as well, even if there wasn't as much as in II.

 

[hmjohnny]

Too much time passed. Too much negativity within that time over the media. People moved on etc

But where did that negativity come from? We have at least 1.2 million people who played the game, much more if you count multiple people in the same household and pirates. I'd guess at least 2 million people played the first Shenmue. But over the years those people lost interest. I find it hard to believe that the media swayed that many people. It's much more likely they bought it on hype and just didn't like it.

FF7 is an older game that has a much bigger legacy. People have been clamoring for a remake forever and it's install base has only grown over the years. By your own admission that can't have anything to do with either the genre or the FF franchise since neither were popular or well known in the west.

Nevermind the pirates. As mentioned in the past, it is said that in order for Shenmue to be a success and the DC not to die, everyone that owned a DC would have had to buy the game 3 times.

This thread isn't about whether Shenmue could have been financially successful or why it wasn't. It's about why the legacy has been so tarnished and left in mockery.

They aren't.
You said Action Adventure. You didn't say Adventure.
Action Adventure is a different genre than Adventure. Those two are Action Adventure games.
Shenmue is an adventure game. There is some action in it to be sure; but it isn't enough overall to call it an action adventure game as the majority of your experience you are in adventure mode more than action mode.

Action adventure is a sub genre of adventure. Again not to get into semantics but I don't consider them action adventure games either. I haven't played Sekiro so I'll leave it out but I am a fan and have played all of the Uncharted games and they are action games, specifically action platformers, but not adventure.

The adventure genre is kind of nebulous so we could probably debate the definition, but I'd categorize it as narrative focused, exploratory, and open or non-restrictive (think non-level based or what used to be called open world). Shenmue doesn't really fit the mold of a 'traditional' adventure game either, which were very puzzle focused, but it's the closest thing I could categorize it as, I think we agree on that.

It absolutely is not. It is still very slow paced. In some instances I'd argue even more than the first due to how much bigger the environments are.

no way. RPGs hit you with battles almost all the time how could you say they are slow paced? You fight right way in FF VI and FF VII and even in DQ XI

I think you and I are talking past each other here. By pace I mean the overall rate at which significant things happen. In Shenmue, and most games case, it is when the overall plot moves forward. The size of the world doesn't necessarily factor into the pace of the game if there are interesting things to do in the world. Like wise with RPG battles, especially random, turned based battles, which are far slower paced than their action game equivalents.

In Shenmue 2 things always seem to be happening to develop characters, world build, or push the plot forward. Would you consider a movie like the Godfather slow paced?

At this point I should reiterate, I'm not against slow paced things, slow paced does not necessitate boring.

Shenmue 2 absolutely has slow pace. The whole waiting for Chawang signs, the whole searching for the 4 Wude masters, the whole following NPCs when you dont know where to go etc. You're praising up Shenmue 2 while lamenting on Shenmue 1 when they both share the same qualities. Like I said, at times Shenmue 2 is even more slow paced than Shenmue 1 due to the size of its world.

I do think Shenmue 2 is a faster paced game overall, but it has slow moments. I mean it covers 3 "chapters" in around the same time it takes the original to cover 1.

That being said I want to take back what I said about Shenmue 1 being slow paced compared to 2. I think I should articulate by that I meant Shenmue 2 is more deliberately paced. Shenmue 2 ends with Guilin, arguably the most slow paced part of the series (and one of my favs), but the pacing fits perfectly within the scope of the story.

Shenmue 1 is plodding at times, and feels padded with filler like the forklift job that goes on too long, or sub plots that go nowhere. I get that its a different part of the story, but it should play to its strengths which for me are focusing on Ryo's relationships and character moments.

FWIW I think Disc 2 of Shenmue 1 is perfectly paced out and it has the least action of the game. It just feels like the story is moving forward and interesting things are happening. It feels like the most focused part of the game.

Isnt Lucas Arts pretty much EA now? I wouldnt use them as an example

LucasArts got bought out by Disney but they stopped making adventure games before that. It's a perfect example since they alongside with Sierra were the king of adventure games in the 90's until they both couldn't make enough profit to continue making them. Adventure games evolved, but the traditional point & click adventure game has ostensibly died out.

And Telltale games still exists forgot about them

They went bankrupt, case in point.

 

[Budgiecat]

Telltale games is still around. Square and SNK went bankrupt too. So what. We're talking about now.
Wolf Among Us 2 was announced as well as a Batman Telltales Noire Edition.

 

[Budgiecat]

But where did that negativity come from? We have at least 1.2 million people who played the game, much more if you count multiple people in the same household and pirates. I'd guess at least 2 million people played the first Shenmue. But over the years those people lost interest. I find it hard to believe that the media swayed that many people. It's much more likely they bought it on hype and just didn't like it.

Media definitely did. It did for people who never tried the games and still wont bother to. For the people that didnt like the first one that played it, yeah: its both. They didnt like it, so many avoided Shenmue 2, and all the time and media influence further solidified their original beliefs. It reminds me of someone I know who hates the Yakuza series. I asked him why and what did he play: he said Yakuza 3. I asked why he hated it; he said because he hated the Sunflower Orphanage part as it dragged on too long and he stopped there and never finished the game. I told him why dont you play Yakuza Zero; it is nothing like that and it even is getting praised. He doesnt care. Over the years, that experience of Yakuza 3 along with the older negative media criticisms of the game and people calling it 'a poor man's GTA' helped solidify is first impression from Yakuza 3 even though that obviously doesnt reflect the entire series in general. So he is missing out due to his preset biases based on his limited view of the series coupled with media's criticism over the years.

Action adventure is a sub genre of adventure. Again not to get into semantics but I don't consider them action adventure games either. I haven't played Sekiro so I'll leave it out but I am a fan and have played all of the Uncharted games and they are action games, specifically action platformers, but not adventure.

Uncharted has platforming in it but equally there is third person shooting just the same so calling it a platformer is disingenuous. but at its core story wise you are going on an epic adventure and there is action in it aka the action of third person shooting, platforming, and at times, puzzle solving (and adventure staple) and even melee and some stealth.
Matter of fact, if you go to gaming sites like Giant Bomb and Gamefaqs, Uncharted series is specifically listed as "action-adventure" so its not even up for debate. They are commonly addressed as action-adventure games.

In Shenmue 2 things always seem to be happening to develop characters, world build, or push the plot forward. Would you consider a movie like the Godfather slow paced?

I wouldn't compare a game to a movie and I never really cared for the Godfather movies to comment on them.

Shenmue 1 is plodding at times, and feels padded with filler like the forklift job that goes on too long, or sub plots that go nowhere. I get that its a different part of the story, but it should play to its strengths which for me are focusing on Ryo's relationships and character moments.

Its sounding like you and some others really just wanted a visual novel.

Adventure games evolved, but the traditional point & click adventure game has ostensibly died out.

not even true.

 

[hmjohnny]

Media definitely did. It did for people who never tried the games and still wont bother to. For the people that didnt like the first one that played it, yeah: its both. They didnt like it, so many avoided Shenmue 2, and all the time and media influence further solidified their original beliefs. It reminds me of someone I know who hates the Yakuza series. I asked him why and what did he play: he said Yakuza 3. I asked why he hated it; he said because he hated the Sunflower Orphanage part as it dragged on too long and he stopped there and never finished the game. I told him why dont you play Yakuza Zero; it is nothing like that and it even is getting praised. He doesnt care. Over the years, that experience of Yakuza 3 along with the older negative media criticisms of the game and people calling it 'a poor man's GTA' helped solidify is first impression from Yakuza 3 even though that obviously doesnt reflect the entire series in general. So he is missing out due to his preset biases based on his limited view of the series coupled with media's criticism over the years

Media may have played a part in deterring new players or shaping their opinions of Shenmue 3 if they never played the originals (though this I doubt had a huge effect), but what about the over 1 million people that did play Shenmue? Shenmue 2's Xbox release was too late and not widespread enough to have reached most of those people, but by then it was too late, most of them made up their mind about the games.

Your anecdote supports what some others are saying on this thread, and partly what I've been saying, which is that they got turned off by Shenmue and basically never came back and gave it another chance. The reason for this is because on some level or another the game disappointed them.

Uncharted has platforming in it but equally there is third person shooting just the same so calling it a platformer is disingenuous. but at its core story wise you are going on an epic adventure and there is action in it aka the action of third person shooting, platforming, and at times, puzzle solving (and adventure staple) and even melee and some stealth.
Matter of fact, if you go to gaming sites like Giant Bomb and Gamefaqs, Uncharted series is specifically listed as "action-adventure" so its not even up for debate. They are commonly addressed as action-adventure games.

Just because you go on 'an adventure' doesn't make it an adventure game. The game is mostly action, with some light puzzles and platforming thrown in, I guess you could say this is an evolution of the adventure genre but I don't see much in common with the traditional adventure games which were more exploratory in nature.

From a game design perspective think of the verbs, basically what actions are you primarily performing in this game. Uncharted is more of a linear action game with an adventure theme than an actual adventure game. Even Shenmue is a bit of hybrid genre, but like you, it feels to me like the evolution of the point and click adventure genre.

Anyway, I don't want to make this a point of contention since the concepts of genres are somewhat subjective.

Its sounding like you and some others really just wanted a visual novel

No. I don't even like visual novels personally, I tried to get into a few on a friend's recommendation but I'm generally not interested.

I will say that I do care about games mostly for their stories, and I care primarily about Shenmue for its story. One of things that I like about Shenmue is that it tells its story through its gameplay, mostly through its environments. Shenmue (all 3 of them) are masterclasses in level building for games. Not only is the level design good but every area feels so atmospheric and unique.; truly the environment as a character. It also really suits its story of going on an epic quest. Not to mention all of the attention to detail in the mise en place and mise on scene. Ryo's house is a great example of this.

I do resent however being told that I only wanted a visual novel. This is a common criticism on here that basically implies you're not a real fan because you criticize parts of the series. I don't hate any of the Shenmue games but in a thread about why people hate the series, to not face some of the facts that Shenmue can be bad at times is devolving into denial.

not even true.

It is true. Adventure games were way more prolific in the 80's and 90's. Most of the big players of that time vanished or stopped making them. Sure, there are indie titles here and there but the classic adventure game is all but dead in the mainstream gaming community.

That doesn't mean it didn't evolve into hybrid genres, many of which you mentioned.

I think you and I have gone on a long tangent. The point of this thread is not which Shenmue game is best, or why the series didn't succeed financially or gain a new audience with the 3rd installment. It is why after all these years does Shenmue have a bad reputation.

 

[hmjohnny]

Telltale games is still around. Square and SNK went bankrupt too. So what. We're talking about now.
Wolf Among Us 2 was announced as well as a Batman Telltales Noire Edition

I did not know this, I thought they were gone for good. This is great news actually since I was looking forward to Wolf Among Us 2 before they went under last year.

 

[Budgiecat]

Media may have played a part in deterring new players or shaping their opinions of Shenmue 3 if they never played the originals (though this I doubt had a huge effect), but what about the over 1 million people that did play Shenmue? Shenmue 2's Xbox release was too late and not widespread enough to have reached most of those people, but by then it was too late, most of them made up their mind about the games.

Media and gamers within the past 18 years have contributed to deterring new players or shaping their opinions of Shenmue 1, 2, AND 3.
Don't isolate it to just Shenmue 3 that is disingenuous.
There are people that were not even BORN when Shenmue 2 on Xbox came out and yet have avoided Shenmue HD collection because of the media. That's how long this has been going on. Do not let your personal bias for Shenmue 2 blind you of this.

It is true. Adventure games were way more prolific in the 80's and 90's. Most of the big players of that time vanished or stopped making them. Sure, there are indie titles here and there but the classic adventure game is all but dead in the mainstream gaming community.

That doesn't mean it didn't evolve into hybrid genres, many of which you mentioned.

You said they were dead. They're not dead.
Life is Strange, Syberia, Telltale games, Murdered: Soul Suspect, The Suicide of Rachel Foster, etc; plenty of them still come out

Your anecdote supports what some others are saying on this thread, and partly what I've been saying, which is that they got turned off by Shenmue and basically never came back and gave it another chance. The reason for this is because on some level or another the game disappointed them.

And there are people who were turned off by Shenmue II Xbox just the same. Just less because less copies were sold. Less release as I mentioned before. Less people to reach out to due to it being on the Xbox. But people still avoided Shenmue HD just as well years later and that included Shenmue 2.

Just because you go on 'an adventure' doesn't make it an adventure game. The game is mostly action, with some light puzzles and platforming thrown in, I guess you could say this is an evolution of the adventure genre but I don't see much in common with the traditional adventure games which were more exploratory in nature.

From a game design perspective think of the verbs, basically what actions are you primarily performing in this game. Uncharted is more of a linear action game with an adventure theme than an actual adventure game. Even Shenmue is a bit of hybrid genre, but like you, it feels to me like the evolution of the point and click adventure genre.

I already covered this so I don't know why you're still debating what cannot be debated. Uncharted series is factually listed as action-adventure for years. By majority of public opinion by many companies and gamers, it is an action-adventure series. Nothing you personally think or say will change that. Its not even subjective. Its objective.

No. I don't even like visual novels personally, I tried to get into a few on a friend's recommendation but I'm generally not interested.

I will say that I do care about games mostly for their stories, and I care primarily about Shenmue for its story. One of things that I like about Shenmue is that it tells its story through its gameplay, mostly through its environments. Shenmue (all 3 of them) are masterclasses in level building for games. Not only is the level design good but every area feels so atmospheric and unique.; truly the environment as a character. It also really suits its story of going on an epic quest. Not to mention all of the attention to detail in the mise en place and mise on scene. Ryo's house is a great example of this.

I do resent however being told that I only wanted a visual novel. This is a common criticism on here that basically implies you're not a real fan because you criticize parts of the series. I don't hate any of the Shenmue games but in a thread about why people hate the series, to not face some of the facts that Shenmue can be bad at times is devolving into denial.

I'm saying Visual Novel because it seems that is what you and some others only seem to care about; the story aspect.
But you and the others failed to even listen to what Yu Suzuki said in his interviews leading up to this game; that the Shenmue experience is more than just its story. You and others handwaved all the other additions to the gameplay like they dont matter because you wanted story story story story so bad. I get it. Its been 18 years. 18 years of waiting. For a game that by all counts shouldnt even have been possibly made. Like Suzuki said: its a miracle it was even made. But that doesnt mean that the game should dive full force into the story as its most important aspect. The story of Shenmue honestly was never something to really even write home about. Sure it had potential to open up into something grander than it appeared to be but what it was just a story of revenge with martial arts theme.
I appreciate the changes to focus more on the martial arts theme. I get the impression you dont care. Have you ever taken a martial art? Yu Suzuki flew to China, met a Bajiquan grandmaster, learned about the culture and became friends with him; even to the point of him teaching him the style. This was to help with the creation of Virtua Fighter. Later that grandmaster flew to Japan against the will of his family (who didnt trust the Japanese) to help Suzuki. This in turn helped inspire Yu to make Shenmue. In some ways, Shenmue reflects the friendship of him and this grandmaster much like Iwao and Zhao.
But the road to get there, the trials and tribulations, the work put in, yes in real life it was game development specific for Yu Suzuki, but he still learned the culture of China which inspired him, he still learned the art of Bajiquan, he still made friends along the way, and so he reflects this into Shenmue; this road to inner reflection and self discovery that is much more than just the revenge story of Ryo avenging his father which is a basic storyline we've all seen a million times in Saturday afternoon Kung Fu movies from Shaw Brothers and Golden Harvest. The STORY is the PATH to martial arts training and the philosophy behind it, not just "Chi You Men", "Dragon & Phoenix Mirror" and whatever the hell Lan Di is planning.
The story is the lessons Ryo learns along the way. The story is his relationship building with Shenhua, the story is him showing his kindness by helping others in the village and Nioawu as well as he did in Aberdeen, Kowloon, Guilin, and Yokosuka. The story is him living the life of an 18 yr old day to day in 1987. The story is shown through the gameplay not just the narrative.
That's Shenmue.

 

[sbkodama]

I already covered this so I don't know why you're still debating what cannot be debated. Uncharted series is factually listed as action-adventure for years. My majority of public opinion by many companies and gamers, it is an action-adventure series. Nothing you personally think or say will change that. Its not even subjective. Its objective.

Long ago on game website forum, I joked on the fact that I could compare bayonetta and gta because they were both listed as adventure games in the website, and my comment was moderated.

So I can't let you say that it's objective, adventure genre is too lightweight to mean much, and action genre is too. Many games which goes in specifics genres could just be put in the adventure genre like open world, rpg, metroidvania. Many games which goes in specifics genres could just be put in the action genre like beat them, shooter, fighting.