Where U think the source of Haters originated from???

[Sh3ppy]

To each his own. I think MGS4 suffers mostly from having too much story

A Hideo Kojima game with excessive story? Well that’s definitely not like him at all...

 

[iknifaugood]

A Hideo Kojima game with excessive story? Well that’s definitely not like him at all...

MGS5 says hello.

 

[hmjohnny]

@hmjohnny I actually confused you for another poster, so actually I apologize. I was thinking of @iknifaugood maybe when I posted all this. Anyway, sorry if I look way too hostile on my post.

No worries, he and I share many views so I guess it's easy to get us mixed up. I guess text can come across differently than you intend so I also apologize if my comment seemed hostile in return. I hate when people argue in bad faith and I'm trying not to do that but I guess some people think I did.

About the question of the thread, I believe it was due to despite Shenmue being niche, it is a high profile game mainly because of Yu Suzuki and the fact it gained notoriety for being the most expensive game project of its time and the result didn't have the mainstream appeal of his usual arcade hits like Outrun and Virtua Fighter.

I think this plays a big part of it. There are many niche games that most people don't care about, but Shenmue has had a backlash that seems unfair to me at times. I think how high profile it was and how it was marketed played a factor. I'm not sure it's the whole story though.

About stories in games, it's not that I think they have no use as I much prefer games to have stories than not. But to me they are not full fledged story like cinema, but simply hooks that give the player a reason to be within the game world. And the most important part is the in-between the hooks, the game itself in which players have some sort of agency and interaction with is that what tell the "best stories", if you know what I mean. That's why I play games. The story itself is just a default motivation or intrisic reward for the players to immerse themselves with the game world. And I'm not gonna get that from films no matter how good their stories are.

I think you and I may be talking past each other here, I believe we agree more than you think. Here's the thing, I think that games are a narrative medium. Not all games have to have a story, not all stories need to be central to all games, but I think games are just as capable of story telling as film, or literature for example. How every medium tells their stories is going to be different, and they each have different strengths and weaknesses. I think you're right that films lack that immersion that games have the ability to have, its a different feeling, and it can convey certain emotions better because of it.

Anyway, the answer to your question is yes as Shenmue is not that story focused anyway. If you look at what consists of a well structured story, at least for me, is that it has to have an initial exposition, an overarching conflict and rising action, and an ending overall resolution. Does it look like any of the games have all those? You said yourself that Shenmue 1's story was not good with plot holes and stuff (I think you did anyway, forgive me if I got the wrong poster again). But to me they are perfect, as they give me enough as the player to fill the gap with my own stories through simply playing the game, interacting with the world. In S2 you get robbed by Wong in the beginning of the game. You think that was some story masterclass by Yu Suzuki? No, it was just an excuse for me the player to play a QTE action sequence which will lead to a gang fight after and when all that done, force the player to look for a job and so on.... hooks leading to other ones in a fluid gaming experience. While in S1, most think of the game as a revenge story, but me playing the game it was more like Ryo was trying to reconnect to his estranged father, the irony being that he only got to know his father better after he was murdered. And this wasn't told through cutscenes, just me going through drawers inside the Hazuki household. That's me though, of course your experience may vary. And that's the beauty of it.

I disagree that Shenmue is not story focused, it is heavily story focused. Some games the story is cursory it's just there to string you along and the gameplay is largely disconnected from it. Adventure games, like Shenmue, are often primarily about their stories.

Story != plot btw. Story is everything, including the things you mention. Exploring the drawers in Ryo's house and seeing how things are laid out is mise en scene, and is a great way of the game conveying its story to you. It adds characterization and world building. As I said before Shenmue is masterclass in environment and world building. All 3 of them succeed at this really well.

Even the scenario with Wong is part of the story. It being an excuse for action scene adds to the pacing of the game. It also acts for Ryo to lose his money which in turn makes him broke for the next part of the game, again that is story. This is what I mean by Shenmue uses its gameplay to tell the story alongside the cutscenes. Every beat of the game from the combat to walking around and talking to NPC's is all about building the story.

Being a game however, it is still subject to ludonarrative dissonance. Some things like collecting capsule toys etc. are just there to spice up the game and don't contribute to the narrative.

Anyway, critic away about any of Shenmue games... I was just reading some posts about how S2 was a good game, or even almost RPG as one posted, while the rest were garbage, and thought it was funny as they are fundamentaly the same at their core. And so I commented away without a thought. Apologies again

No worries again, we are good. I think that S2 is the best in the series for a number of reasons, obviously the core is the same, but that doesn't mean the execution is equal. I think that's what iknifu was saying with MGS. You don't have to like all the games equally, they are different games after all.

 

[Sh3ppy]

MGS5 says hello.

Hiya!

 

[Guppy]

I think games are just as capable of story telling as film, or literature for example. How every medium tells their stories is going to be different, and they each have different strengths and weaknesses. I think you're right that films lack that immersion that games have the ability to have, its a different feeling, and it can convey certain emotions better because of it.

I'm not disagreeing on games being a narrative medium, as even the likes of Space Invaders and Pong are actively telling a story or plot of sorts. My point is that even if games are capable of being on par with literature and cinema in terms of storytelling, that element's quality and quantity don't significantly add on the quality of the game itself. This is going off topic, specially discussing about game theory or design that no one else is interested, so let me just say this to keep it short: is Shenmue a good game? Yes. Would it be a better game if it had and an Oscar-like script and performance? No, but it would be more liked by the general public. That's the difference.

And btw, to the contrary to what I may sound in my posts I love cinematic outputs like Until Dawn and thought of it to be one the best games of that year it came out, but I wouldn't think of it as a good movie.

I disagree that Shenmue is not story focused, it is heavily story focused. Some games the story is cursory it's just there to string you along and the gameplay is largely disconnected from it. Adventure games, like Shenmue, are often primarily about their stories.

Story != plot btw. Story is everything, including the things you mention. Exploring the drawers in Ryo's house and seeing how things are laid out is mise en scene, and is a great way of the game conveying its story to you. It adds characterization and world building. As I said before Shenmue is masterclass in environment and world building. All 3 of them succeed at this really well.

I guess then the stuff I'm talking about is the immutable portion of the game in which players don't take part in, linear cutscenes, the "story" which players don't get to have interaction with.

No worries again, we are good. I think that S2 is the best in the series for a number of reasons, obviously the core is the same, but that doesn't mean the execution is equal. I think that's what iknifu was saying with MGS. You don't have to like all the games equally, they are different games after all.

I don't like all the three games the same, but objectively I can't say one is the best thing ever while the other ones are bad at the design level while most of these execution argument posts I've been reading are minor inconveniences like controls and storytelling pacing. And yes, I'm not saying all game series are the same across all their games as the Zelda ones for example are not a series I particularly care for as they are only okay to me, but Majora's Mask and BotW elevate the formula to amazing, with the added mechanics and extra dimension elements.

 

[hmjohnny]

Would it be a better game if it had and an Oscar-like script and performance? No, but it would be more liked by the general public. That's the difference.

I think it would be a better game. It wouldn't make the gameplay better but it would make the experience better and the game is the overall experience.

It would also add to mainstream appeal as one of the main criticisms of Shenmue is the dialogue and stilted acting (especially in English).

I guess then the stuff I'm talking about is the immutable portion of the game in which players don't take part in, linear cutscenes, the "story" which players don't get to have interaction with.

Yeah, I kind of see what you're getting at. However, adventure games rely heavily on their stories. I mean at the end of the day I still play Shenmue for the story. The gameplay isn't that good without it, since it's mostly walking around and interacting with things, talking to people etc. If the things you are doing aren't interesting then they border on mundane and even boring. Shenmue falls into this trap from time to time. It needs interesting events to keep the game going and give it a point.

 

[sbkodama]

I'm not disagreeing on games being a narrative medium, as even the likes of Space Invaders and Pong are actively telling a story or plot of sorts. My point is that even if games are capable of being on par with literature and cinema in terms of storytelling, that element's quality and quantity don't significantly add on the quality of the game itself. This is going off topic, specially discussing about game theory or design that no one else is interested, so let me just say this to keep it short: is Shenmue a good game? Yes. Would it be a better game if it had and an Oscar-like script and performance? No, but it would be more liked by the general public. That's the difference.

I don't know where your cursor for good story is but cinema and literature don't primarily need good story, the first need a good cinematography and the second need a good writing style.

Of course quality of story add on the quality of game with story as much as literature and cinema, shenmue would be a better game if it had a better story and shenmue 3 just proves this.

 

[Guppy]

I think it would be a better game. It wouldn't make the gameplay better but it would make the experience better and the game is the overall experience.

It would also add to mainstream appeal as one of the main criticisms of Shenmue is the dialogue and stilted acting (especially in English).

Yeah, I kind of see what you're getting at. However, adventure games rely heavily on their stories. I mean at the end of the day I still play Shenmue for the story. The gameplay isn't that good without it, since it's mostly walking around and interacting with things, talking to people etc. If the things you are doing aren't interesting then they border on mundane and even boring. Shenmue falls into this trap from time to time. It needs interesting events to keep the game going and give it a point.

It won't elevate the game design at by any significant margin, as it's already very narrative cinematic the way it is. And on the subject of making the experience better I find it to be subjective, as a lot of fans actually prefer the English dialogue and stilted acting as seen around here, and not for lack of options. The Shenmue games themselves are interesting enough for me despite whatever quality of its story cutscenes it may have, and again I'm not saying their absence would be better for the game. Again, it's your preference with the story aspect in games, and I'm not critiquing you on that. Apologies again for the aggression, definitely not my intention.

I don't know where your cursor for good story is but cinema and literature don't primarily need good story, the first need a good cinematography and the second need a good writing style.

Of course quality of story add on the quality of game with story as much as literature and cinema, shenmue would be a better game if it had a better story and shenmue 3 just proves this.

It doesn't matter as you got my meaning anyway. And no, it didn't prove anything to me as I put S3 on par with S2, and a better story would not change that. Would I have liked a better story? Sure, but it still wouldn't have much impact on my overall gaming experience, even if that story brought me to tears or excitement at every cutscene.

 

[iknifaugood]

Would it be a better game if it had and an Oscar-like script and performance? No, but it would be more liked by the general public. That's the difference.

Shenmue is pretty clearly a game about its story so the strength of that story matters more than it does in, say, a game like Devil May Cry. This is what I mean when I say that game genres tell their stories differently; they have different weight placed on their stories. The issues I take with S1 and 3 are primarily with the story but also how the story affects the gameplay. Exploring an environment and pressing interact on everything is a game design that is almost entirely reliant on the story: is the motivation compelling, is the setting interesting, do I care about the characters etc. S3 in particular suffers greatly because almost every interaction is just a character telling you to go talk to another character without advancing the story.

Would I have liked a better story? Sure, but it still wouldn't have much impact on my overall gaming experience, even if that story brought me to tears or excitement at every cutscene.

The story in a game is more than just the cutscenes. In MGS4 for instance, the story dictates the setting and the scenario. I found it hard to get into a groove and dig deep into the mechanics because the scenarios kept shifting. I'm not sure if you've beaten S3 yet but the story's pacing is very clearly an issue with the second half of the game, even its most ardent defenders will admit to that. The story and gameplay are inextricably linked.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Shenmue is pretty clearly a game about its story.

Hmm... gotta disagree hard on this take.

The series in particular, is incredible in EVERY element, not just story.

It's why we were told to not expect something up to the level of the older games, as they had a ton of budget to (almost literally!) throw money at every element in order to make it the best it could be.

It's a series to show off multiple forms of gameplay and how they all are effective with each other (Adventure, AA, Fighting, Simulation, etc.), to display state of the art graphics (the previous 2 titles), an ambitious and incredible soundtrack and the ability to play for a shit-ton of hours.

Lump in a phenomenal story and you have every game element at the peak of its ambition.

It's why the series is so beloved and why so many of us consider the second game to be the greatest game ever created.

What I will say is that the series is clearly story-DRIVEN, in that it is the story that brings you to experience all of these game elements at their best.

I liken it to being on a tour in a foreign country (the game); you have your tour guide (story), that allows you to experience sights (graphics), foods (gameplay), culture (sounds) and to make it non-tedious and engaging, while making it long-lasting and worthwhile (replay).

The tour itself is designed to let you experience something incredible and while there are numerous parts, the guide is the one that ties everything together and keeps it going, but you don't take the tour for the guide and you're not on the tour because the tour is based around the guide.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[iknifaugood]

What I will say is that the series is clearly story-DRIVEN, in that it is the story that brings you to experience all of these game elements at their best.

I liken it to being on a tour in a foreign country (the game); you have your tour guide (story), that allows you to experience sights (graphics), foods (gameplay), culture (sounds) and to make it non-tedious and engaging, while making it long-lasting and worthwhile (replay).

The tour itself is designed to let you experience something incredible and while there are numerous parts, the guide is the one that ties everything together and keeps it going, but you don't take the tour for the guide and you're not on the tour because the tour is based around the guide.

Hope that makes sense.

This is essentially what I mean so I think we agree for the most part. For me, however, the story and the mysteries are so central to what I like about Shenmue that I can't realistically argue that I would like S2 as much if it was weak in this department. Most of why S2 is the best is because how it tells its story makes the gameplay better. Think about how much better a villain Dou Niu is compared to Mr. Muscles simply because S2 took the time to set him up properly through various gameplay scenarios. That's what I mean; it's an ouroboros. Or to use an example from S1; the Hazuki basement. Would that be anywhere near as effective if you weren't uncovering story mysteries that were (presumably) going to pay off later? No it wouldn't and we know this because S3

Spoiler: SPOILER ALERT

makes us explore a blind woman's home and there's nothing interesting at all in it because she has no connection to the overall story, you're just looking for keys.

 

[ShenSun]

Dunno, i always found that

• Certain people love to hate stuff which others cherish.

This happens with all mediums and celebrities, people, places etc. It stems from jealously and envy. Ive seen The Rock, dewayne johnson get hate, and hes like the most uplifting coolest dude on the planet. Wtf?

• Certain people love to hate stuff they dont understand

I dont understand it so i hate it. See jim sterlin.

• Certain people love to hate stuff because thats cool in 2019. Outrage.

"If i insert a snarky toxic comment, maybe ill get likes, shares or a reaction on my posts, and ppl will recognise me. I clearly dont get recognised in real life, so this is my chance "

• Certain people love to hate stuff to feel apart of a group, albeit a stupid toxic group

Everyone craves to be apart of a group and if you havent got that in real life you'll look elsewhere. Easiest way to get it in this day and age is to join the outrage mob online in whatever topic.

• Certain people love to hate stuff because theyve been told to do so

You've seen all the repeated silly shenmue narratives online and how people repeat it over and over again like robots. They cant think for themselves, so they need someone to tell them how to think and what to say. Scary stuff when you think about it.

Ultimately people hate stuff without any logical reason because they are sad, pathetic losers in real life. If you're a rubbish person in real life, you'll try and spread it onto other people and bring them down as you cant stand seeing ppl or (insert whatever) doing well.

Theres lots of stuff i dont like. Theres tons of games i dont like. But im not gonna actively try and sabotage these things just because....... (insert reason above) or because people love it. What a waste of time, energy and life. Like do something more productive with your time. Wtf. Who does this stuff??

Id love to meet these people in real life just to see what type of person they are. I can promise you they're not the type you'd associate with. If anything, if you ever do see people acting like this, get as far away from them as possible. Bloody toxic. Always remember, a person's character will always be reflected in their behavior

The one thing that really baffles me is the sneaky articles and youtubers who pretend they are a fan but then use clever language to attack the game and portray it in a bad light. When in reality they just want drama to drive views and clicks, so they get paid by their advertisers. No morals or ethics. Just tell the truth and stop being sneaky. If you like it, cool. If you dont, cool. But be honest.

Dont get me wrong, Shenmue and Shenmue 3 has tons of problems. The way the KS was handled was also a massive problem. Critiquing all the reasonable aspects of the game is fair play and im sure most of us would understand or agree with these critiques. But we can all tell when there is a straight up hit piece towards the game or an agenda on certain forums etc.

Fortunately, the crtics for shenmue 3 have been fairly reasonable and a good portion of the stuff they mentioned are things we were upset about in the game also. Shenmue 4 could easily get an 85+ if the feedback is taken by ysnet and implemented accordingly.

Shenmue will always be a target. Its one of the few games to make a massive return. Highest funded KS, revolutionised gaming, etc. Its a target by default because of what its accomplished

Ultimately, ppl can hate all they want. The shenmue fans won in the end and that eats the haters up, especially those who always said fans were chasing a dream and the series should stay dead etc. The jokes on them. We won.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

This is essentially what I mean so I think we agree for the most part. For me, however, the story and the mysteries are so central to what I like about Shenmue that I can't realistically argue that I would like S2 as much if it was weak in this department. Most of why S2 is the best is because how it tells its story makes the gameplay better. Think about how much better a villain Dou Niu is compared to Mr. Muscles simply because S2 took the time to set him up properly through various gameplay scenarios. That's what I mean; it's an ouroboros. Or to use an example from S1; the Hazuki basement. Would that be anywhere near as effective if you weren't uncovering story mysteries that were (presumably) going to pay off later? No it wouldn't and we know this because S3

Spoiler: SPOILER ALERT

makes us explore a blind woman's home and there's nothing interesting at all in it because she has no connection to the overall story, you're just looking for keys.

She kinda does though; Shenhua mentions her a few times during the walk in II and doesn't she have a line that says that the village elder can maybe help him make sense of the mirror or something?

Can't recall at this time...

FTR, I get where you're coming from completely.

 

[Myshtuff]

Dunno, i always found that

• Certain people love to hate stuff which others cherish.

This happens with all mediums and celebrities, people, places etc. It stems from jealously and envy. Ive seen The Rock, dewayne johnson get hate, and hes like the most uplifting coolest dude on the planet. Wtf?

• Certain people love to hate stuff they dont understand

I dont understand it so i hate it. See jim sterlin.

• Certain people love to hate stuff because thats cool in 2019. Outrage.

"If i insert a snarky toxic comment, maybe ill get likes, shares or a reaction on my posts, and ppl will recognise me. I clearly dont get recognised in real life, so this is my chance "

• Certain people love to hate stuff to feel apart of a group, albeit a stupid toxic group

Everyone craves to be apart of a group and if you havent got that in real life you'll look elsewhere. Easiest way to get it in this day and age is to join the outrage mob online in whatever topic.

• Certain people love to hate stuff because theyve been told to do so

You've seen all the repeated silly shenmue narratives online and how people repeat it over and over again like robots. They cant think for themselves, so they need someone to tell them how to think and what to say. Scary stuff when you think about it.

Ultimately people hate stuff without any logicsl reason because they are sad, pathetic losers in real life. If you're a rubbish person in real life, you'll try and spread it onto other people and bring them down as you cant stand seeing ppl or (insert whatever) doing well.

Theres lots of stuff i dont like. Theres tons of games i dont like. But im not gonna actively try and sabotage these things just because....... (insert reason above) or because people love it. What a waste of time, energy and life. Like do something more productive with your time. Wtf. Who does this stuff??

Id love to meet these people in real life just to see what type of person they are. I can promise you they're not the type you'd associate with. If anything, if you ever do see people acting like this, get as far away from them as possible. Bloody toxic. Always remember, a person's character will always be reflected in their behavior

The one thing that really baffles me is the sneaky articles and youtubers who pretend they are a fan but then use clever language to attack the game and portray it in a bad light. When in reality they just want drama to drive views and clicks, so they get paid by their advertisers. No morals or ethics. Just tell the truth and stop being sneaky. If you like it, cool. If you dont, cool. But be honest.

Dont get me wrong, Shenmue and Shenmue 3 has tons of problems. The way the KS was handled was also a massive problem. Critiquing all the reasonable aspects of the game is fair play and im sure most of us would understand or agree with these critiques. But we can all tell when there is a straight up hit piece towards the game or an agenda on certain forums etc.

Fortunately, the crtics for shenmue 3 have been fairly reasonable and a good portiom of the stuff they mentioned are things we we were upset about in the game also. Shenmue 4 could easily get an 85+ if the feedback is taken by ysnet and implemented accordingly.

Shenmue will always be a target. Its one of the few games to make a massive return. Highest funded KS, revolutionised gaming, etc. Its a target by default because of what its accomplished

Ultimately, ppl can hate all they want. The shenmue fans won in the end and that eats the haters up, especially those who always said fans were chasing a dream and the series should stay dead etc. The jokes on them. We won.

 

[spud1897]

View attachment 6552

And this proves the point made by @ShenSun

It's not aimed at you it's a general statement and one indicative of wider society these days in his opinion and it's clear you're trying to start something that's not there, and have been for weeks across the boards.

 

[Myshtuff]

And this proves the point made by @ShenSun

It's not aimed at you it's a general statement and one indicative of wider society these days in his opinion and it's clear you're trying to start something that's not there, and have been for weeks across the boards.

 

[Le Champion]

View attachment 6559

Did you know Le Champion likes to pour his bubbly into a glass and then drink from the bottle?

 

[Guppy]

The story in a game is more than just the cutscenes. In MGS4 for instance, the story dictates the setting and the scenario. I found it hard to get into a groove and dig deep into the mechanics because the scenarios kept shifting. I'm not sure if you've beaten S3 yet but the story's pacing is very clearly an issue with the second half of the game, even its most ardent defenders will admit to that. The story and gameplay are inextricably linked.

Sure, but you are just playing names with me as I posted that the stuff I'm talking about is any narrative elements that players have no agency or interaction with. If you are throwing level design or exploration then it's a whole different thing. If you had a problem with MGS 4 scenario changes, it wasn't because of the story interfering with the game. These levels all could have taken place within a single forest or desert, with Kojima then suplementing a 2 hour cutscene to make up for whatever discrepancy players might find in the plot and the game would still be the same.

As for S3, I'm not done with the game but after hearing that what you are having issue with has to do mainly with the narrative, I doubt I will change my mind about it. To be clear I love narrative-driven games as the best game of 2019 to me is Disco Elysium, a pure narrative-driven non-combat focused RPG, with talking as the only mean of game progression, probably the first of its kind. If you like story then maybe that might be a game for you, though I can't guarantee the quality of its story as I only started playing it. Regardless, it's an amazing game so far and that's what I'm getting at.

 

[Schmeman]

Who the fuck is le champion? Also what the fuck happened to this place? Cant even post memes now? Thin skin. Enjoy your shenmue circle jerk.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Who the fuck is le champion? Also what the fuck happened to this place? Cant even post memes now? Thin skin. Enjoy your shenmue circle jerk.

Because it’s all this guy’s done? It’s annoying and people are actually trying to talk about the game. Even people who don’t like it. Yes, people who don’t like Shenmue are freely posting about it and no one cares because they’re actually trying to have a conversation.