Why kickstarter to make S4? What about SEGA?

[Budgiecat]

Ok but you’re just wrong. Pixel art (what SNK and Capcom are famous for) is extremely laborious. So is trying to do 3D like LA Noir. That does not make 2D more expensive than 3D, hence why indie studios make 2D games for hundreds of thousands of dollars and AAA devs make games that cost hundreds of millions. And that’s just factoring in the art side, it’s exponentially more expensive to script and code in 3D. You’re talking to a game developer here, I know what I’m talking about. If you think it’s cheaper to make a 3D game then I invite you to give it a try.

And "extremely laborious" = a lot of money. More time, more money.
3D cuts that down. Arc System Works is proof of that.

Dont confuse minimal 2D indie sprite work with what fighting games have to do regarding 2D.

No one said anything about 2D open world games so thats a moot point.

Thats why I said initially it depends on the game. And specifically for fighting game genre, this is fact. 3D is cheaper.

 

[iknifaugood]

Thats why I said initially it depends on the game. And specifically for fighting game genre, this is fact. 3D is cheaper.

There are a lot of factors that go into this decision. 3D has more mass appeal than 2D, just like 2D sprites have more mass appeal than pixel art. Just the way it goes (broadly speaking). It's definitely easier to make something like, say, Skullgirls in 2D (crazy animation, lots of warping monster parts etc.). But for a game like Street Fighter? Where most of the characters are human and you want to sell a bunch of costumes as DLC? 3D is a no brainer; it would take forever to animate different costumes in 2D. On the whole though, across all genres, 3D is more expensive because it requires more people across more disciplines.

R.I.P. Metal Slug

I have no idea what you’re even arguing anymore.

 

[Budgiecat]

I have no idea what you’re even arguing anymore.

Wut

Like dude there's a galaxy apart difference between low budget indie simplistic retro pixel 2D art versus literally thousands of individual HD animation sprites for fighting games hand drawn animation. You're trying to equate them on equal plane. No.
3D for fighting game genre is cheaper to do than HD hand drawn animated 2D. This is fact. Thats why I said it depends on the game as in genre. In terms of fighting games, this is fact. If we're talking about SNES/NES looking retro pixel 2D indie stuff to wax nostalgia? No its not and then yes 3D is obviously more expensive. But in fighting games, they moved over to 3D because its cheaper and it looks more modern to consumers since everything else AAA these days is 3D. Its more marketable.

 

[iknifaugood]

Thats why I said initially it depends on the game. And specifically for fighting game genre, this is fact. 3D is cheaper.

Wut

Like dude there's a galaxy apart difference between low budget indie simplistic retro pixel 2D art versus literally thousands of individual HD animation sprites for fighting games hand drawn animation. You're trying to equate them on equal plane. No.
3D for fighting game genre is cheaper to do than HD hand drawn animated 2D. This is fact. Thats why I said it depends on the game as in genre. In terms of fighting games, this is fact. If we're talking about SNES/NES looking retro pixel 2D indie stuff to wax nostalgia? No its not and then yes 3D is obviously more expensive. But in fighting games, they moved over to 3D because its cheaper and it looks more modern to consumers since everything else AAA these days is 3D. Its more marketable.

You’re arguing that if you do something the hardest way possible in 2D (pixel art frame by frame) then that’s more expensive than the cheapest way to do it in 3D in one specific genre? Ok. Good point, I guess?

Like I said, you can make 3D stupidly expensive too if you animate custom rigs made out of 600+ bones frame by frame like Guilty Gear Xrd. Or if you 3D photoscan actors’ performances and mocap every scene like in LA Noir.

Most companies don’t choose to do things the hardest way possible though, because they like to make money. Sure you could hand animate everything on paper and then scan it in like Cuphead, you could remake Metal Slug out of oil paintings if you wanted, doesn’t change the fact that 2D is cheaper than 3D 99% of the time.

 

[Budgiecat]

You’re arguing that if you do something the hardest way possible in 2D (pixel art frame by frame) then that’s more expensive than the cheapest way to do it in 3D in one specific genre? Ok. Good point, I guess?

Like I said, you can make 3D stupidly expensive too if you animate custom rigs made out of 600+ bones frame by frame like Guilty Gear Xrd. Or if you 3D photoscan actors’ performances and mocap every scene like in LA Noir.

Most companies don’t choose to do things the hardest way possible though, because they like to make money. Sure you could hand animate everything on paper and then scan it in like Cuphead, you could remake Metal Slug out of oil paintings if you wanted, doesn’t change the fact that 2D is cheaper than 3D 99% of the time.

Not when it comes to fighting games hence my point

L.A. Noir was a test and its tech is dead. No one's ever gonna use that because there's better methods out now.

 

[iknifaugood]

Not when it comes to fighting games hence my point

Ok you go ahead and tell me that Divekick costs more to make than Guilty Gear Xrd or you can just admit that you’re not actually making a point.

L.A. Noir was a test and its tech is dead. No one's ever gonna use that because there's better methods out now.

Replace LA Noir with Street Fighter 3 and maybe you’ll finally understand my point.

(EDIT) Even though it doesn’t have to do with games, the budget for The Princess and the Frog, the last 2D animated movie Disney ever produced, cost $105M to produce. Pixar’s Up which came out the same year? $175M. The reason Disney stopped making 2D movies is because the Princess and the Frog made $205M at the box office and Up made $735. Same principle applies to games.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

We are talking about the possibility of Sega making/help to make S4

Remember that please.

 

[xatruio]

I'm optimistic about the junior Satomi's potential for Dreamcast and Shenmue revival, especially his current track record already since 2017/18. Also, I'm in the camp of Deep Silver is better than no one else at all, regardless if the engine/asset recycling and more efficient talent requires less budget. YS and Shibuya still couldn't afford the full funding.

*[...]Sales are also about 4:1 PS4:Xbone, so part of me is wondering what would have happened to the series if it continued on PlayStation 2 and further.

At the time PS2 had a massive, historic, install base. With regard to specific audience, though, not sure Shenmue ll still would've done so much better like some speculate in retrospect revisionism. Sure wouldn't have hurt, though.

I remember back in the day, my pipe-dream was a Gamecube port of Shen2x. Nintendo fans then and now would likely be a smart base to try selling Shenmue's fine wine taste. Same argument has been made for a Switch port of the HD reissue; use Playstation for the user base quantity, Nintendo for player base quality--so to speak.

 

[Budgiecat]

I'm optimistic about the junior Satomi's potential for Dreamcast and Shenmue revival, especially his current track record already since 2017/18. Also, I'm in the camp of Deep Silver is better than no one else at all, regardless if the engine/asset recycling and more efficient talent requires less budget. YS and Shibuya still couldn't afford the full funding.



At the time PS2 had a massive, historic, install base. With regard to specific audience, though, not sure Shenmue ll still would've done so much better like some speculate in retrospect revisionism. Sure wouldn't have hurt, though.

I remember back in the day, my pipe-dream was a Gamecube port of Shen2x. Nintendo fans then and now would likely be a smart base to try selling Shenmue's fine wine taste. Same argument has been made for a Switch port of the HD reissue; use Playstation for the user base quantity, Nintendo for player base quality--so to speak.

One thing I always thought was odd: with all the Dreamcast titles that found their way onto the og Xbox...how come Virtua Fighter 4 never made it onto there? It came to PS2 (since DC had died already) which I always found odd.
I was gonna suggest maybe Itagaki of Dead or Alive told Microsoft not to have Sega bring it over for fear of competition? But nah that sounds too silly. Besides, DoA2 Hardcore was on PS2..

 

[xatruio]

More plausible of MS putting exclusivity funds on DOA3, they did not want to compete against their own investment with VF4.

 

[Kyo_JP]

I never bought an Xbox or GC because VF4 was not released on them, althoug neither PS2 because VF4 port was crap. VF4 Evo port was much better, but I discover that years later when my brother bought one. I always thought that a Wii port of Shenmue was feaseble because texture wise GC/Wii and DC was somehow similar

 

[Tomato Convenience Store]

At the time PS2 had a massive, historic, install base. With regard to specific audience, though, not sure Shenmue ll still would've done so much better like some speculate in retrospect revisionism. Sure wouldn't have hurt, though.

I remember back in the day, my pipe-dream was a Gamecube port of Shen2x. Nintendo fans then and now would likely be a smart base to try selling Shenmue's fine wine taste. Same argument has been made for a Switch port of the HD reissue; use Playstation for the user base quantity, Nintendo for player base quality--so to speak.

Of course nothing would be guaranteed but I feel Sega shot themselves in the foot by going third party and releasing their games exclusively on one platform. In Shenmue's case, it's a sunken cost and if you release the game on all consoles and it sells higher than expectations on one of them, you now have a new audience for a Shenmue III, IV, V. Games you could knock out every 2 years since you have the tech and dev process figured out.

 

[JoshTehKing20]

After dropping 300€ into the S3 kickstarter and seeing the end result ... No way will I ever fund another kickstarter.

 

[Suzaku]

I just discovered this topic, so later I'll read the posts.

But in my opinion I think that there should be a collaboration between Sega and YSNet:

YsNet helping Sega with Virtua Fighter 6 (since AM2 has troubles and basically no ideas to make the 6th entry), and in return Sega helping with workforce for Shenmue IV.

This way both games could share even the same upgraded fighting engine.

It would be a win-win for everyone.

 

[Budgiecat]

After dropping 300€ into the S3 kickstarter and seeing the end result ... No way will I ever fund another kickstarter.

oh cmon just do it again its fun

 

[Dmitriy1]

I just discovered this topic, so later I'll read the posts.

But in my opinion I think that there should be a collaboration between Sega and YSNet:

YsNet helping Sega with Virtua Fighter 6 (since AM2 has troubles and basically no ideas to make the 6th entry), and in return Sega helping with workforce for Shenmue IV.

This way both games could share even the same upgraded fighting engine.

It would be a win-win for everyone.

I thought in Shenmue 3 the fighting was smooth, way better than 1&2, or VF3 I played later on in the 2000s. Shenmue made me find it and play it, I know with most it's the reverse. Fighting games were not too interesting to me by then, if they just were arcade fighters. I do think if VF6 used this system, plus added throws, plus improved physics as far as impact, and especially from throws! Shenmue 4 could really shine. He also could, and should use chars from Shenmue games in it as secret costumes, or such other things. Drive the interest up. Will it happen? Probably not, but could have been neat.

 

[Dmitriy1]

After dropping 300€ into the S3 kickstarter and seeing the end result ... No way will I ever fund another kickstarter.

I'll never understand you all. It looks, feels and plays like Shenmue. It is clearly a part 3. His vision of looking inward to really have you get to know Shenhua and the reverse is all there. The fighting, IMO I know is improved, minus the throws being cut due to cash problems. I don't get the story gripes, it has more story than Shenmue 1 did. It does feel rushed at the very, very end, but even so you get all you'd get in 2004 or so, but looking better. I now give up even trying to understand your types. I hope Shenmue 4 happens regardless. Way too many were more of SEGA fanboys in 2000, plus gaga'd over graphics. He did his best to continue part 2 properly. I love the results. That's just me.

 

[JoshTehKing20]

I'll never understand you all. It looks, feels and plays like Shenmue. It is clearly a part 3. His vision of looking inward to really have you get to know Shenhua and the reverse is all there. The fighting, IMO I know is improved, minus the throws being cut due to cash problems. I don't get the story gripes, it has more story than Shenmue 1 did. It does feel rushed at the very, very end, but even so you get all you'd get in 2004 or so, but looking better. I now give up even trying to understand your types. I hope Shenmue 4 happens regardless. Way too many were more of SEGA fanboys in 2000, plus gaga'd over graphics. He did his best to continue part 2 properly. I love the results. That's just me.

More story than Shenmue 1? Im sorry what? Your kidding right?

 

[Dmitriy1]

Of course nothing would be guaranteed but I feel Sega shot themselves in the foot by going third party and releasing their games exclusively on one platform. In Shenmue's case, it's a sunken cost and if you release the game on all consoles and it sells higher than expectations on one of them, you now have a new audience for a Shenmue III, IV, V. Games you could knock out every 2 years since you have the tech and dev process figured out.

He needs 2 very solid partners. I want to know how many copies sold on Epic. Tim Sweeny is trying to break out his store. He wants exclusives people will care about. ATM I got 2 on his platform. Both extremely good unique games. Both are full of hate from Steam users. I love it, they talk about when they'll really launch on PC LOL. Full of spite, but envy too. Imagine a big announcement. S4 is fully backed by Epic on PC. Even more help from UE team, all for a full exclusive. PS4 can be all digital too. Yes I know Zoltor. It's going that way whether you want it to, or not. That'd save on most costs of publishing, creating cases, disks, shipping, retail costs... Sony would save tons they had to waste on S3 due to backers expecting physical copies... It's all doable.

 

[Dmitriy1]

More story than Shenmue 1? Im sorry what? Your kidding right?

Play it again, disc 3 is constant forklift race, then the minigame with forklift. There is a neat QTE sequence on the motorbike, lots of just fighting almost getting boring. Questioning in the harbor is wasting time. Only running the clock matters. Yes, The whole Shenmue 1 has very little story. It has a neat puzzle having you go to an antique shop, OK so S3 has one with you needing another shop. Same for all the points. S1 has you get to know Master Chen and his son, OK so 3 has 2 ultra neat masters you learn from. Fun quest for one of them, funny, cool IMO. Almost out of my favorite films. The story in S3 is told so much more it's crazy compared to S1. The point of S1 is just going away from home. Hate S3 all you want, it has you know way more by the end than S1 did. S3 is bigger, S3 has martial arts on demand for hours at a time, and not just the dumb 70 man battle either, where it's in a bad area with camera problems. And not only after you beat the game either. None of the fights have the stupid camera problems S2 had either, god I remember some still... Replay S1, see all the negatives it had. S3 is a huge improvement IMO.