Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[Machsi]

Exactly. Shenmue IV doesn't need better graphics to pull in new players. It needs to tell a more engaging story, better characterisation (including English VO that is more naturalistic...or none at all), a more engaging progression structure, and deeper combat.

The game didn't get mixed reviews because of its graphics.

Graphics were the best thing about Shenmue 3. Not to beat a dead horse, but the interviewer seems to be a bit fanboying Yu Suzuki and they both don’t seem to understand (or ignore) what really caused the backlash on Shenmue 3. No, it’s not because it wasn’t appealing to mainstream and newer gamers, it’s because you screwed up a potentially brilliant story and padded the hell out of the game with endless tedium to progress the story at a snail’s pace in the most unoriginal and laziest of ways.

 

[orient]

Graphics were the best thing about Shenmue 3. Not to beat a dead horse, but the interviewer seems to be a bit fanboying Yu Suzuki and they both don’t seem to understand (or ignore) what really caused the backlash on Shenmue 3. No, it’s not because it wasn’t appealing to mainstream and newer gamers, it’s because you screwed up a potentially brilliant story and padded the hell out of the game with endless tedium to progress the story at a snail’s pace in the most unoriginal and laziest of ways.

Going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think there's anything "lazy" about Shenmue III. Yu didn't just try to make a game that was identical to I or II and mess it up. He purposefully made a game where the "side stuff" is more integrated into the experience, meaning you have to engage with those things to properly enjoy the game. I understand that isn't to everyone's tastes, but it is what it is. Some people have the exact same complaints about the original games, that they move at a snail's pace and pad your progression with busy work. Everyone's mileage will vary with games like these.

 

[shredingskin]

People are willing to accept a huge spectrum of graphics from a tech/asset perspective as long as their expectations are properly informed. Absolutely no one in the history of this universe has ever complained Ys VIII (an absolutely gorgeous game btw) didn't have PS4 level assets. Or even PS3 level assets, for that matter.

It has to do with the direction tho.
Shenmue tries to go for the full cinematic experience, with dynamic cameras, tons of closeups, cutscenes, full VA, and it does show the flaws of the animations a lot more, feeling even cheaper than just a non-voiced dialogue.
Many people focus on lack of GUI, non extradiegetic audio, etc, but what really ends up breaking immersion is lack of consistency. You can play a game made 20 years ago and still be immersed if it's consistent.

 

[spud1897]

Graphics were the best thing about Shenmue 3. Not to beat a dead horse, but the interviewer seems to be a bit fanboying Yu Suzuki and they both don’t seem to understand (or ignore) what really caused the backlash on Shenmue 3. No, it’s not because it wasn’t appealing to mainstream and newer gamers, it’s because you screwed up a potentially brilliant story and padded the hell out of the game with endless tedium to progress the story at a snail’s pace in the most unoriginal and laziest of ways.

Esra is a Shenmue fan, no question but if you read his review of 3 he said the same thing about the story and is fully aware of the shortcomings.

The game isn't lazy either, to me a lazy game is one that is broken as hell and doesn't work. Shenmue III is fine in this regard, barring the pop in & the QTE's being a bugger. He's made a deliberate game to please the fans & the majority of fans outside of the hardcore group were happy with it. A claim made by Yu Suzuki and also Embracer the parent firm of Deep Silver.

What I hope is while of course Yu takes onboard the criticisms he makes what he wants to. Hes made a game for the fans. Let him go off and make what he wants to. Should a Shenmue 4 come out I'm pretty sure there's going to be people put out by what it ends up being regardless of what changes he makes. That's the beauty of a subjective art. Thats what it is at the end of the day, you can spin something however you want but it's all subjective, be it one word or an essay.

 

[GhostTrick]

Going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think there's anything "lazy" about Shenmue III. Yu didn't just try to make a game that was identical to I or II and mess it up. He purposefully made a game where the "side stuff" is more integrated into the experience, meaning you have to engage with those things to properly enjoy the game. I understand that isn't to everyone's tastes, but it is what it is. Some people have the exact same complaints about the original games, that they move at a snail's pace and pad your progression with busy work. Everyone's mileage will vary with games like these.

The structure of the game is lazy though. Lazy is the correct word for that. It's almost identical in Bailu and Niaowu.

It's not a problem of engagement either but of balancing and quality.

The game is mostly about tedious tasks with no rewards in a tedious structure. Which makes you feel like Shenmue III is all about repetition. You mostly repeat the same tedious tasks in Bailu and in Niaowu and in the same order.

I also agree that, with all due respect to Ezra, the interview sounds really fanboyish on some aspect. To say that Niaowu pedestrian density is unparalleled when it's worse than Shenmue II... A Dreamcast game. It's not even in the standards of a 20 years old game. It's not even in the standard of PS2/DC titles. It's far behind PS360 titles. And I wont even compare to PS4One titles...
In any case, it's still a nice interview. It's reassuring when it comes to Shenmue IV happening... But less so in terms of what they learned from III.

 

[spud1897]

The structure of the game is lazy though. Lazy is the correct word for that. It's almost identical in Bailu and Niaowu.

It's not a problem of engagement either but of balancing and quality.

The game is mostly about tedious tasks with no rewards in a tedious structure. Which makes you feel like Shenmue III is all about repetition. You mostly repeat the same tedious tasks in Bailu and in Niaowu and in the same order.

I also agree that, with all due respect to Ezra, the interview sounds really fanboyish on some aspect. To say that Niaowu pedestrian density is unparalleled when it's worse than Shenmue II... A Dreamcast game. It's not even in the standards of a 20 years old game. It's not even in the standard of PS2/DC titles. It's far behind PS360 titles. And I wont even compare to PS4One titles...
In any case, it's still a nice interview. It's reassuring when it comes to Shenmue IV happening... But less so in terms of what they learned from III.

Lazy comes across as a little disrespectful. Lazy to me is a game that's busted and doesn't work. This does short comings and all, which I won't go into as this always rears its head and quite frankly has become tiresome. Hes made a game he thought fans would enjoy that's subjective in its nature and widely accepted outside of here by the people the game was made for. If it wasn't who would be after a Shenmue 4?

I'm not going into the whole mixed reviews stuff, it's been done.

I've said it above. Esra is a Shenmue fan, always has been but even he knows the story issues. Now the Niaowu comment I agree with to some extent but to go all hyperbole with the DC comment makes me want to scream, is there really a need for it? You made your point.

Yes it's not densely populated as it should be but have you also given thought to the following:

The NPC's in Shenmue II generally don't move around/are scheduled as much. Many are sat in or behind shop stands. The ones that do move about stay within smaller areas unless you ask for directions.

Shenmue 1 isn't that densely populated but each NPC has more purpose than Shenmue 2. Which gives it the homely feel IMO

Second he had, at the time of the originals the best team around him making those games.

Third he said in the same interview that he wants to make more areas like Shenmue I and II & wants more characters on the screen. Why they didnt get that this time is beyond my understanding of the tech involved but I suspect it was causing running issues, which we already know about the pop in on PS4..

Its exciting to know what Shenmue 4 may bring

 

[orient]

The structure of the game is lazy though. Lazy is the correct word for that. It's almost identical in Bailu and Niaowu.

I hesitate to call anything lazy when developers worked day and night for years to make it a reality.

In the interview Yu even mentions that they had no plans for Master Sun to teach you a move originally but worked really hard to put it in there. It seems obvious to me that the game is a victim of fluctuating scope and budget. They planned for a much smaller game, then scaled it up as best they could when extra funds came in, and it caused some issues with the structure. They were really trying to deliver a full Shenmue experience through what was clearly a tumultuous development cycle. Ryan Payton said the game had major ups and downs over those four years. I don't think we know the half of it.

It has to do with the direction tho.
Shenmue tries to go for the full cinematic experience, with dynamic cameras, tons of closeups, cutscenes, full VA, and it does show the flaws of the animations a lot more, feeling even cheaper than just a non-voiced dialogue.

I personally hated the mix of non-voiced and voiced quests in the Yakuza games. As soon as the games hit PS3 it felt jarring and extremely dated. That type of inconsistency is worse than what we got in III imo.

 

[9dragons]

I think S3 got mixed reviews because it was just not the average normal modern game. And just because it does things different it does not mean that the new way is always better.Sure thing, Shenmue 3 plays very slow compared to your average modern game and the maps were sparely populated compared to the average game. But is that really that bad?

Are soulless bots standing around like in Yakuza fashion that are only obstacles really that much better for the game play experience.

Even a AAA Game like FF7 Remake has the problem. I have never been a fan faceless characters that are just standing around without any function besides being an obstacle for players.

Maybe my "advanced" age has changed my view of games in general. I now prefer quality more than I prefer mass.

I want games that try to simulate a living a world. A world you can interact with. I never liked like worlds with lots of characters that have no to point to the story or the gameplay.

And although it far form perfect Shenmue 3 does this still better than any other modern game I know. And do not get me wrong I like Yakuza as much as do Shenmue, it has fun gameplay, interesting characters but just the open world/exploring part is a bit flawed.

 

[Yokosuka]

It has to do with the direction tho.
Shenmue tries to go for the full cinematic experience, with dynamic cameras, tons of closeups, cutscenes, full VA, and it does show the flaws of the animations a lot more, feeling even cheaper than just a non-voiced dialogue.
Many people focus on lack of GUI, non extradiegetic audio, etc, but what really ends up breaking immersion is lack of consistency. You can play a game made 20 years ago and still be immersed if it's consistent.

Good point. Inconsistency is the reason assuming S3 lacked six months of development at least (because whether Suzuki failed to estimate the right length of time or/and his private funders were unable to foresee the commercial potential of a matured Shenmue 3).

Add the chaotic last chapter, you really feel YSnet was overwhelmed by work and fixing until the very last minute. Yu's anecdote about Sun's move mastering is just reinforcing the idea that every added feature felt as an extraordinary accomplishment for the staff.

If YSnet manages to keep the core of its original staff and master their planning - with appropriate brainstorming and pre-production, I want to believe we'll get a far better experience with Shenmue 4 rather than inheriting Shenmue 3 with some fixes.

To complete Dietsoap's words, I would say no game feels ugly anymore. At worst, they may feel bland or have a terrible art direction but you can't really be disturbed by average visuals since Unity and UE4's era.

Again, the technique just needs consistency otherwise your game seems made by amateur people and I think that's why a lot of people felt discouraged to buy the game after watching the trailers.

 

[GhostTrick]

Lazy comes across as a little disrespectful. Lazy to me is a game that's busted and doesn't work. This does short comings and all, which I won't go into as this always rears its head and quite frankly has become tiresome. Hes made a game he thought fans would enjoy that's subjective in its nature and widely accepted outside of here by the people the game was made for. If it wasn't who would be after a Shenmue 4?

I'm not going into the whole mixed reviews stuff, it's been done.

I've said it above. Esra is a Shenmue fan, always has been but even he knows the story issues. Now the Niaowu comment I agree with to some extent but to go all hyperbole with the DC comment makes me want to scream, is there really a need for it? You made your point.

Yes it's not densely populated as it should be but have you also given thought to the following:

The NPC's in Shenmue II generally don't move around/are scheduled as much. Many are sat in or behind shop stands. The ones that do move about stay within smaller areas unless you ask for directions.

Shenmue 1 isn't that densely populated but each NPC has more purpose than Shenmue 2. Which gives it the homely feel IMO

Second he had, at the time of the originals the best team around him making those games.

Third he said in the same interview that he wants to make more areas like Shenmue I and II & wants more characters on the screen. Why they didnt get that this time is beyond my understanding of the tech involved but I suspect it was causing running issues, which we already know about the pop in on PS4..

Its exciting to know what Shenmue 4 may bring

There's no hyperbole with the Dreamcast comment. Niaowu's streets are deserted. Shenmue II's Hong Kong feels like at many times it display more pedestrians on screen. And while you barely interact with them... You cant either with the ones in Niaowu.

That's the worst part here. I'm not being hyperbolic here. You have to compare it to Dreamcast games and even there, it's not favorable for Shenmue III.

I get it, back in the days he had a top tier team. But that was 20 years ago. A game with a 20 millions dollar budget and on some aspect, pedestrians draw distance is worse than Dreamcast games. Then again, I'm not making the point that it's problematic or whatsoever. I dont really care. My issue was more about the "unprecented" comment in the interview, which for instance is hyperbolic.

 

[spud1897]

There's no hyperbole with the Dreamcast comment. Niaowu's streets are deserted. Shenmue II's Hong Kong feels like at many times it display more pedestrians on screen. And while you barely interact with them... You cant either with the ones in Niaowu.

That's the worst part here. I'm not being hyperbolic here. You have to compare it to Dreamcast games and even there, it's not favorable for Shenmue III.

I get it, back in the days he had a top tier team. But that was 20 years ago. A game with a 20 millions dollar budget and on some aspect, pedestrians draw distance is worse than Dreamcast games. Then again, I'm not making the point that it's problematic or whatsoever. I dont really care. My issue was more about the "unprecented" comment in the interview, which for instance is hyperbolic.

Your comment is hyperbole suggesting that they couldn't make it on par with the DC without knowing the project limitations they were working under and ignoring the methods they used on the dreamcast to make it work

That said I do agree with you on the unprecedented comment, it's not plain and simple. It's a pretty city but under populated/suffers from pop in which you can bet your bottom dollar is why they didnt populate more of it. On PC the area with the stands seems much better and more alive but it's not suffering with the pop-in

Yu himself has said he wants more NPC's on the screen.

He actually better deployed this in Bailu but then the populated areas are much smaller with more spaces between unlike Niaowu which is one big city area.

 

[Peter]

Steeping in here to remind people of the TOS of the site.

Criticise the game until the cows come home. That's allowed, and always will be. Thats your opinion and will be respected. But criticism and accusation are 2 different things, and if you are getting personal with those responsible for bringing this game to life by calling them lazy, that's not going to fly at all.

Considering the financial, professional and emotional aspects that exist on this project since 2015, to say they were just sitting around doing nothing, or deliberately sat back and settled for a sub par game is a different slap in the face to saying they could have done things differently.

We are all in a position to praise or criticise, not to accuse. If you do, you better have some serious level of evidence to suggest so. Otherwise, cut it right here.

 

[iknifaugood]

Are soulless bots standing around like in Yakuza fashion that are only obstacles really that much better for the game play experience.

I don't think anyone is comparing the NPCs when they talk about liking Yakuza over Shenmue. Look at videos of Yakuza's combat compared to S3's, or the minigames, or the cutscenes etc.

I want games that try to simulate a living a world. A world you can interact with. I never liked like worlds with lots of characters that have no to point to the story or the gameplay.

And although it far form perfect Shenmue 3 does this still better than any other modern game I know.

You think Shenmue 3 simulates a living world you can interact with with lots of characters and story better than GTA, RDR, BotW, The Witcher 3? Hell, even Fallout 3 and Skyrim for their age...

if you are getting personal with those responsible for bringing this game to life by calling them lazy, that's not going to fly at all.

Honest question here: is there a distinction between saying that the quest design/story structure is lazy (something I agree with, I think invisible walls in Bailu village and that fetch quest in the old castle are transparently lazy design choices) the same thing as saying the people who worked on the game are lazy (which is obviously not true, they developed and released a video game, that's not easy to do)?

Some people have the exact same complaints about the original games, that they move at a snail's pace and pad your progression with busy work. Everyone's mileage will vary with games like these.

There are ways to compare these things though. Compare how long it takes to beat the games, just following the story line, and then look at how much ground was covered in the story. S1 took me around 20 hrs, S2 took me 15, and S3 took me 25 (I'm willing to bet it would be a good amount shorter in a new game + because of the full stamina and knowing exactly where to go). S2 is faster paced by any measure and, while I agree with your point that broadly speaking these games are slow paced, there's slow and then there's slow. RDR2 and BotW are both very slow paced games as well; it's not always instantly a negative thing, especially if it's contrasted against exciting parts (which S2 also has much more of than 1 and 3).

 

[Ashnard]

I'm really, truely shocked and surprised that this game cost 20 millions to make, because it doesn't look like it honestly.
I know a french game named Greedfall who had a budget of 5-7 millions and it looks better than what we've got with shenmue

It does mean it had the same budget as a Yakuza game if the news are right (yes I know Yu suzuki had to make the team from the beginning or close to) but still the gap is huge in terms of game design, writing, cinematography

 

[Peter]

Honest question here: is there a distinction between saying that the quest design/story structure is lazy (something I agree with, I think invisible walls in Bailu village and that fetch quest in the old castle are transparently lazy design choices) the same thing as saying the people who worked on the game are lazy (which is obviously not true, they developed and released a video game, that's not easy to do)?

Of course there is. Laziness is an action, carried out by someone through choice. A piece of art being lazy, is simply a reflection of the artist themselves, and if the term lazy is being used to describe any aspect of this game, it's directly implying that the person that created it was lazy. Unmotivated to work. Unwilling to work. Cant be arsed. Slacking off. Couldn't give a shit. Any, and all aspects of this video game exist through creation. Not natural means. They are what they are because someone deemed them to be.

If i say your post was lazy, is it the post itself that caused it self to be lazy? No, it's you, the creator of that post, chose to make it so.

 

[9dragons]

iknifaugood The last GTA I have played is GTA 2. Never got into the 3d GTA and they do not have to seem a appealing story anway. Not a fan of fantasy so I never played Witcher and Sykrim. Do not have a switch so I never tried out Breath the Wild.

Read Dead Redemption was to complicated for me. Always got lost so I never finished it. What I have seen so far of the game does not look like a good story.

But yes within the context of small world Shenmue is good with the interacting part. Not perfect but good.

I like this smaller scale worlds more than t he big ones were nothing happens and you just get lost.


But in the end it is a matter of taste.

 

[hyo_razuki]

I'm really, truely shocked and surprised that this game cost 20 millions to make, because it doesn't look like it honestly.
I know a french game named Greedfall who had a budget of 5-7 millions and it looks better than what we've got with shenmue

It does mean it had the same budget as a Yakuza game if the news are right (yes I know Yu suzuki had to make the team from the beginning or close to) but still the gap is huge in terms of game design, writing, cinematography

You don't know how much of that was spent on marketing and so on but reading this number dropped my jaw. It sure as heck also didn't raise my opinion of the game YS Net have made with four and a half years of development time and that kind of budget on their hands.

 

[Sonoshee]

I'm really, truely shocked and surprised that this game cost 20 millions to make, because it doesn't look like it honestly.
I know a french game named Greedfall who had a budget of 5-7 millions and it looks better than what we've got with shenmue

It does mean it had the same budget as a Yakuza game if the news are right (yes I know Yu suzuki had to make the team from the beginning or close to) but still the gap is huge in terms of game design, writing, cinematography

Yakuza have an experienced team. With the exception of Yu and a couple of ex-AM2 developers, I believe most were new-recruits and/or work was outsourced. Remember that not all of that $20 million went to development, either. They had Kickstarter rewards fees, license fees, etc. to pay out. They probably had $15 million tops after what Shibuya and Deep Silver put in to the pot.

And this is before taking into account what was worked on with that money that was eventually cut. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of what was in development that we didn't see in 3 will be used/reworked for Shenmue 4. Like Basiha and hopefully, the siege war section too.

 

[iknifaugood]

Of course there is. Laziness is an action, carried out by someone through choice. A piece of art being lazy, is simply a reflection of the artist themselves, and if the term lazy is being used to describe any aspect of this game, it's directly implying that the person that created it was lazy. Unmotivated to work. Unwilling to work. Cant be arsed. Slacking off. Couldn't give a shit. Any, and all aspects of this video game exist through creation. Not natural means. They are what they are because someone deemed them to be.

If i say your post was lazy, is it the post itself that caused it self to be lazy? No, it's you, the creator of that post, chose to make it so.

That's what I mean, if you call my post lazy, it could just be a roundabout way of calling me lazy so is that against the TOS?

You don't know how much of that was spent on marketing and so on but reading this number dropped my jaw. It sure as heck also didn't raise my opinion of the game YS Net have made with four and a half years of development time and that kind of budget on their hands.

Just FYI, Uncharted 2 cost $20M to make 10 years ago...

Yakuza have an experienced team. With the exception of Yu and a couple of ex-AM2 developers, I believe most were new-recruits and/or work was outsourced.

While I understand this sentiment, I find this to be as insulting to the devs as anything else. S3 is perfectly fine from a technical standpoint; there are almost no bugs, the models are fine, the environments are nice etc. The story and design choices are where the problems lie, so you could've had Naughty Dog working on the game and it would still have most of the same flaws.

 

[xatruio]

Seeing Yu so happy and excited was a gigantic relief amid the dumpster fire of pessimistic, negative takes on Shenmue 3--let alone the COVID madness. My quiet confidence in Shenmue 4 has now swelled considerably

The empty streets are a valid point, but personally didn't bother me one bit. Also was a little better if you properly Shenmue'd by refusing to run I'm going to be upgrading my PS4 to an SSD soon. Hoping/wondering if it'll help with pop in.

Speaking of... Shenmue 2 has pretty major pop-up/fade-in, yet it is look upon with rose tinted shades. Even Yokosuka has minor pop-in.