Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[WuyingRen]

I don't find it immersive. It's literally one cutscene I need to watch possibly up to 50 times per area. I don't see the benefit of forcing the cutscene. If there were various cutscenes, perhaps it'd be a little more useful but I'd question the need to include multiple "farewell, have a nice day" cutscenes. One time would've been enough for me. I find it most annoying in the hotel since I need to talk to both the innkeeper and Shenhua and it breaks for both conversations. Of course the new patch makes it a little easier to skip it, which I appreciate

My wife has come to find the Hotel Niaowu cutscene a little annoying while watching me play and suggested that Ryo could simply pay for X nights in advance rather than having to go through the same scene each morning. I appreciate the uncertainty in game when it comes to how long Ryo will stay, but the option to pay 1 week at a time or simply to pay the full bill at the end of the area would have worked better for me. At the very least, they could have recorded a few different lines of dialogue so as to make it feel a bit more organic. It’s not like they didn’t know that the player would be staying there for 10+ days.

 

[Thomasina]

See, now you're changing your argument. First it was "Shenmue I & II had great game design, but Shenmue III has terrible game design!" Now it's "Shenmue I & II also had poor game design but Shenmue III didn't improve upon it!"

The fact of the matter is that for almost every "poor game design" choice in Shenmue III, I can come up with something analogous in the first two games. That's just Shenmue. Could the stamina system have been implemented better? Probably. But I accept it because it was part of the new circular economy system, which I think was very well thought out overall. With the exception of maybe combat and the QTE implementation, I find Shenmue III to be the best in the series from a pure gameplay perspective.


I feel like Shenmue III gives you the most options and choices in the series. Yes, you have to earn money and train. But they give you many different ways to do this and they're all fairly fun. And I actually like the fact that you basically need to train to be proficient at fighting. That was always a concept in Shenmue, but the gameplay never reflected it. As Ryo said in Shenmue I, "I'll lose my edge if I don't practice." Shenmue III is the first game in the series that makes the player adhere to GON.

Disc 3 of Shenmue I and Disc 4 of Shenmue II were essentially on-rails. How many options and choices did you have there?


You know what? Forget about the Come Over Guest House example. Now that I think about it, what about Disc 3 of Shenmue I? Each morning you have to watch Ryo wake up and look at his notebook. Then there's a loading screen. Then you have to watch Ryo get off the bus. Then you have to watch Mark's forklift race introduction. Then you have to compete in the forklift race. Then you have to watch Mark give you your prize. Then you have to watch Mark tell you about your route for the day. After all of that, you can finally begin your mandatory forklift job for the day where you still have no real choices or options.

Or how about in Shenmue II when you're forced to air out books every morning until you reach a certain point in the story? Is that not invasive?

Please note that I'm not even complaining about these things. Shenmue I is my favorite game in the series and I love pretty much every moment of it, including Disc 3. I also actually enjoy airing out the books, mostly because of the excellent music and the relaxing atmosphere of it. And Disc 4 of Shenmue II is one of my favorite parts of the series. But considering all of these things (and those are just a few examples), I fail to see how Shenmue I & II give you so many "options and choices" but Shenmue III "forces you through stuff." In many ways, it is quite the opposite.

I completely understand the criticisms about things like story, lack of character development outside of Ryo and Shenhua, and writing/localization. I share many of the same feelings about these aspects of the game. But I 100% disagree that it has "bad game design." It has the most robust gameplay of the series. You despise the inclusion of Face Off so deeply, but the first two games allowed you to pay money to watch a cutscene of Ryo drinking a soda which did absolutely nothing! It's the same thing. Like I said, that's just Shenmue. It's the way it's always been.

The problem with all of this is 20 years have passed. All the things the first 2 Shenmue games received criticism for, they could have been removed, tweaked or improved upon. Shenmue 1 and 2 both have some tedious areas and sequences, but that doesn't make the tedium in Shenmue 3 more tolerable.

The topic asks "Is Suzuki out of touch?" and you're in here saying "but but but Shemue 2 did this, and Shenmue 1 did that!" as if that justifies poor decision making in 2019. Did Suzuki ignore criticism for 18 years? Did he not consider how he could make this or that more fun?

There's people in the topic that are saying "Suzuki's out of touch-ness is what makes his games magical!" but I don't feel that way for Shenmue 3.

Over the past ~18 years, a lot of archaic mechanics and ideas that were standard in 2001 have been streamlined to make gaming less repetitive and Suzuki ignored all of that. There's some nice stuff in Shenmue 3, but there's also a lot of repetition and tediousness and unnecessary filler and unskippable sequences.

At first I enjoyed chopping wood, but that minigame doesn't evolve at all. 1 inch punch didn't evolve at all from level 1 to level 7 master. Horse stance didn't evolve at all. There's no dynamic interactions in fishing.... it's all so repetitive. If you like tedium, then good for you. However, this isn't 1999, and what was ok in 1999 doesn't necessarily cut it 2019.

For me, in hindsight and reminiscience, the good outweighs the bad in the first 2 games because everything comes together so well in a total package for both games. For Shenmue 3, the tedium and grinding takes the spotlight over everything else.

 

[B-Man]

You can get winning Cans to draw tickets for l
Prizes at tomato convenience. There was a point to buying sodas. Also, the soda cutscene itself was likely just product placement for coca cola as they had the license to use it in japan. Im not sure what face off was for.

But you could just buy chocolate, caramel, or chips to guarantee yourself a raffle ticket. You could also originally exchange winning cans for Shenmue Passport goodies before the servers went down, but the same cannot be said for Shenmue II obviously.

So yes, there was a point but not much of one. It was mostly just one of those weird little details that Yu Suzuki likes to put in these games.

I don't know what confuses you about face off so much. No, there is no real point to it. It's just a type of a rock paper scissors game that you can optionally play. It gives Ryo and Shenhua more personality. Yes, it's a bit silly but they are just 18 and 16 year old kids after all.

Also, it might have originally been intended to have an effect on the scrapped affinity system.

The problem with all of this is 20 years have passed. All the things the first 2 Shenmue games received criticism for, they could have been removed, tweaked or improved upon. Shenmue 1 and 2 both have some tedious areas and sequences, but that doesn't make the tedium in Shenmue 3 more tolerable.

The topic asks "Is Suzuki out of touch?" and you're in here saying "but but but Shemue 2 did this, and Shenmue 1 did that!" as if that justifies poor decision making in 2019. Did Suzuki ignore criticism for 18 years? Did he not consider how he could make this or that more fun?

There's people in the topic that are saying "Suzuki's out of touch-ness is what makes his games magical!" but I don't feel that way for Shenmue 3.

Over the past ~18 years, a lot of archaic mechanics and ideas that were standard in 2001 have been streamlined to make gaming less repetitive and Suzuki ignored all of that. There's some nice stuff in Shenmue 3, but there's also a lot of repetition and tediousness and unnecessary filler and unskippable sequences.

At first I enjoyed chopping wood, but that minigame doesn't evolve at all. 1 inch punch didn't evolve at all from level 1 to level 7 master. Horse stance didn't evolve at all. There's no dynamic interactions in fishing.... it's all so repetitive. If you like tedium, then good for you. However, this isn't 1999, and what was ok in 1999 doesn't necessarily cut it 2019.

For me, in hindsight and reminiscience, the good outweighs the bad in the first 2 games because everything comes together so well in a total package for both games. For Shenmue 3, the tedium and grinding takes the spotlight over everything else.

Well, that's fair enough and I can't really argue with it if that's how you feel. It's not the same thing that you were saying before though.

As for myself, I suppose that I do enjoy the tedium in Shenmue to an extent. It contributes to the life simulation and world building aspects of the games and it's all part of the special atmosphere that the series possesses (which I feel is still intact in Shenmue III). I will admit that Shenmue III does not have the payoff that the other games had though. Shenmue I & II were indeed the total package, while Shenmue III really excels in some areas but is really lacking in others.

I definitely do fall in the camp of people who are happy that Yu Suzuki is out of touch with "gaming standards." Then again, I also absolutely love Fumito Ueda's games and consider all three of them to be masterpieces. And they probably stray even further from gaming standards than Shenmue does.

 

[Thomasina]

I suppose that I do enjoy the tedium in Shenmue to an extent.

I do too. It's just excessive in Shenmue 3.

I definitely do fall in the camp of people who are happy that Yu Suzuki is out of touch with "gaming standards." Then again, I also absolutely love Fumito Ueda's games and consider all three of them to be masterpieces. And they probably stray even further from gaming standards than Shenmue does.

I love Ueda's games too. Ueda isn't out of touch tho. He just makes a different kind of game. There's a difference between being out of touch, and wanting to deliver a different experience. There's so many games available today, and so much variety, it's hard to pindown what exactly is the standard.

Using outdated systems and tedium isn't a good quality. A good game has refined systems and mechanics that are easy to use but have depth, and enjoyable to people outside a very small niche.

To implement a food system like this in 2019, right after the trend of food systems was overused, and to have learned nothing from that trend, that's not a good thing and it doesn't make Shenmue 3 a better game because Yu was supposedly unaware of the trend.

I explicitly remember the trend that DayZ started, and how over the years it got to a point where when it was announced that games would have "survival elements", there was a collective sigh from gaming communities. Being oblivious to that is a mistake, imo.

 

[code l name]

I definitely do fall in the camp of people who are happy that Yu Suzuki is out of touch with "gaming standards." Then again, I also absolutely love Fumito Ueda's games and consider all three of them to be masterpieces. And they probably stray even further from gaming standards than Shenmue does.

I never owned a PS2 so I’m a little ashamed to say my first taste of Ueda was the SOTC Bluepoint remaster, which quickly became one of my favourite games of the generation. Then watching the amount of detail and world building expertly catalogued by likes of Nomad Colossus and those that spent years trying to discover beta elements and secrets I couldn’t help be reminded of this community and all the awesome discoveries made by @LanDC and company in those wayward years before Shenmue 3.

That reminds me I need to purchase Last Guardian.

 

[Jigen]

Using outdated systems and tedium isn't a good quality.

Shenmue has always included tedium as a core aspect of it's design, having to wake up every day and carry out books at a temple was surely just as tedious as in 2001 as it would be in 2020. Sure there are technical aspects that are behind in Shenmue 3, but the discussion was very much the same 20 years ago. Other games were considered to have more "deep" and had "better" mechanics, it was the same fucking argument then, Shenmue just had the benefit of beign on the technological cutting edge in 1999. The mundane and tedium is what Shenmue is, if you've moved on fine, but I fucking like it this way. Yu Suzuki knew what he was doing, he delivered the game he knew fans wanted, it is flawed he himself admitted he'd only give it a 7, but it is more or less what people expected for better or worse.

I honestly don't know you're issue with the stamina I quite enjoyed it. I get combat is behind too, but Shenmue is not a combat game really this original systems weren't fantastic either, there's potential for the new combat to surpass the original with the grapples and throws added back in, parries and better animation and hit detection.

 

[Thomasina]

That reminds me I need to purchase Last Guardian.

Do it. Truly an amazing game.

My trinity for this gen, and for gaming in general was getting The Last Guardian, a Mirror's Edge sequel, and Shenmue 3 all on one system. Everything I'd hoped for had all come to fruition within a short time span.

I'm struggling with how Shenmue 3 fits into all of this. I realize I'm complaining about the game a lot, but I'm trying to enjoy it.

 

[Thomasina]

Shenmue has always included tedium as a core aspect of it's design, having to wake up every day and carry out books at a temple was surely just as tedious as in 2001 as it would be in 2020. Sure there are technical aspects that are behind in Shenmue 3, but the discussion was very much the same 20 years ago. Other games were considered to have more "deep" and had "better" mechanics, it was the same fucking argument then, Shenmue just had the benefit of beign on the technological cutting edge in 1999. The mundane and tedium is what Shenmue is, if you've moved on fine, but I fucking like it this way. Yu Suzuki knew what he was doing, he delivered the game he knew fans wanted, it is flawed he himself admitted he'd only give it a 7, but it is more or less what people expected for better or worse.

I honestly don't know you're issue with the stamina I quite enjoyed it. I get combat is behind too, but Shenmue is not a combat game really this original systems weren't fantastic either, there's potential for the new combat to surpass the original with the grapples and throws added back in, parries and better animation and hit detection.

That's right, that tedium has been part of the series. It's just a different kind of tedium. It's grinding.

Shenmue is something different to all of us. We can all play for different reasons. I liked the slow pace, I liked the story, I liked the combat, but Shenmue was never about grinding to the extent Shenmue 3 is. Right off the bat when you get to Bailu and you want to talk to the guy at the pail toss and he says to you " you want this itsy bitsy tidbit of info from me? You need to fight me" and then he kicks my ass handily before I have time to learn the combat system, and then I need to go and grind at the dojo just to beat this guy, but before I can fight him again, I need to go get a job because I need garlic to eat, because stamina drains even when you stand still, and then the money I earned today was already spent on garlic, so tomorrow I need to work again to buy some more garlic so I can grind in Horse Stance and 1 inch punch, and then I need to keep fucking grinding just to fight this pail toss guy, who essentially tells me "the thugs went that way"..... that's the grinding I'm talking about. That's the padding I'm talking about.

It. Is. Excessive.

I can tell the difference between Shenmue fans and Shenmue fanboys easily.

 

[Jigen]

I can tell the difference between Shenmue fans and Shenmue fanboys easily.

I could've had an agreement here, I was willing to say "I don't necessarily agree with you, but I accept your viewpoint." But you just have to be an asshole.

 

[shredingskin]

The problem with S3 is that doesn't have good set pieces that develop the story and the characters.
If there were good narrative moments we would not be arguing if crouching is repetitive, or if fishing is boring.
There are 3 or 4 "gameplay" interactions that I actually remember from the game, the hide and seek with the kids (that felt like an artificial gatekeep, but felt like something at least), searching for stuff (it worked the first time in the stonemason, then it felt boring, too many hotspots, too little to see), the guess mr muscles move that was a nice idea with poor execution and the Shenhua talks (that was pretty good, though I expected more, something fangmei birthday-like).
And the only narrative setpiece I can think of was the rich couple to get the VIP pass.
In S3 most of the time you are asking "about those thugs", that got 0 development through the whole game.

Compare it to SI, you had to enter the old warehouse, you had to find the right bar, learn about 3 blades, find and search the basement, find Charlie, find Chen, rescue Nozomi, get info about the mad angels/the trade, fight Guizang, get info about the mirrors, then you had all the side content, Enoki encounters, Shozo moves, the optional cutscenes, the optional moves, the Nozomi scenes, the cat scenes, there was variety, and most of it felt well integrated with the narrative (as opposed to the S3 sidequests that felt like a one off fetchquest with no narrative value and little ingame reward).

 

[WuyingRen]

The problem with S3 is that doesn't have good set pieces that develop the story and the characters.
If there were good narrative moments we would not be walking if crouching is repetitive, or if fishing is boring.
There are 3 or 4 "gameplay" interactions that I actually remember from the game, the hide and seek with the kids (that felt like an artificial gatekeep, but felt like something at least), searching for stuff (it worked the first time in the stonemason, then it felt boring, too many hotspots, too little to see), the guess mr muscles move that was a nice idea with poor execution and the Shenhua talks (that was pretty good, though I expected more, something fangmei birthday-like).
And the only narrative setpiece I can think of was the rich couple to get the VIP pass.
In S3 most of the time you are asking "about those thugs", that got 0 development through the whole game.

Compare it to SI, you had to enter the old warehouse, you had to find the right bar, learn about 3 blades, find and search the basement, find Charlie, find Chen, rescue Nozomi, get info about the mad angels/the trade, fight Guizang, get info about the mirrors, then you had all the side content, Enoki encounters, Shozo moves, the optional cutscenes, the optional moves, the Nozomi scenes, the cat scenes, there was variety, and most of it felt well integrated with the narrative (as opposed to the S3 sidequests that felt like a one off fetchquest with no narrative value and little ingame reward).

This is an excellent point. The busy work in S3 was no more tedious than carry crates, riding a forklift or working on a pachinko stand, but the narrative in one and two was strong enough to excuse these elements. Three’s story lacked the gravitas to be the primary focus and I think the overall experience suffered as a result of that.

 

[code l name]

guess mr muscles move that was a nice idea with poor execution

I just made a post about this and think mechanically it’s probably one of the series most clunky moments.

First some of the animation and movements look much more like the wrong animal, in addition some of the wrong answers are legitimate forms themselves i.e. Mantis style. You combine that with depending on what shop you are in, you don’t get a clear impression when giving the wrong answer or that a dragon isn't an animal and you have a lot of trial and error.

It’s a shame because like you said it could have been a cool segment but it turns into tedium.

 

[GhostTrick]

The problem with S3 is that doesn't have good set pieces that develop the story and the characters.
If there were good narrative moments we would not be arguing if crouching is repetitive, or if fishing is boring.
There are 3 or 4 "gameplay" interactions that I actually remember from the game, the hide and seek with the kids (that felt like an artificial gatekeep, but felt like something at least), searching for stuff (it worked the first time in the stonemason, then it felt boring, too many hotspots, too little to see), the guess mr muscles move that was a nice idea with poor execution and the Shenhua talks (that was pretty good, though I expected more, something fangmei birthday-like).
And the only narrative setpiece I can think of was the rich couple to get the VIP pass.
In S3 most of the time you are asking "about those thugs", that got 0 development through the whole game.

Compare it to SI, you had to enter the old warehouse, you had to find the right bar, learn about 3 blades, find and search the basement, find Charlie, find Chen, rescue Nozomi, get info about the mad angels/the trade, fight Guizang, get info about the mirrors, then you had all the side content, Enoki encounters, Shozo moves, the optional cutscenes, the optional moves, the Nozomi scenes, the cat scenes, there was variety, and most of it felt well integrated with the narrative (as opposed to the S3 sidequests that felt like a one off fetchquest with no narrative value and little ingame reward).

There's one thing people also never say about the Yokosuka Harbor: It's also a nice change of tone in term of narration. That break time during work is also really nice, because not only it's a narrative excuse to investigate, it's also a nice way to developp characters and set a really nice work atmosphere. You really feel like you belong with those coworkers, hearing about them and such.

Then again... Shenmue 3 has none of that. This is why it's difficult to care about Shenmue 3 because it's not a game that makes you care about its cast.

 

[shredingskin]

Even when you are working in S1 or airing books in S2, both times not only there is a strong narrative incentive to do so, but in both instances you get random cutscenes developing the characters or progressing the plot someway, while still getting nice rewards (the only way to get money in S1 and move scrolls/more free time in S2).

Those random cutscenes that both Shenmues had (honestly are one of the things that make the story flow organically, surprise you and make it replayable) are veeeery missed in S3, and were replaced by fetch sidequests that don't really impact in any way the plot (which is very common these days, talking about "out of touch").

 

[GhostTrick]

Even when you are working in S1 or airing books in S2, both times not only there is a strong narrative incentive to do so, but in both instances you get random cutscenes developing the characters or progressing the plot someway, while still getting nice rewards (the only way to get money in S1 and move scrolls/more free time in S2).

Those random cutscenes that both Shenmues had (honestly are one of the things that make the story flow organically, surprise you and make it replayable) are veeeery missed in S3, and were replaced by fetch sidequests that don't really impact in any way the plot (which is very common these days, talking about "out of touch").

Yup, exactly. Those were tedious for narrative purpose. Airing out books had a point in the story and character developpment. It wasn't there because they wanted to pad out a game with average mecanics.

Which is why this thread title doesn't make sense to me. Shenmue II's game design and ideas weren't out of touch in 2001 and they aren't out of touch in 2020 either. There are indeed some QoL limitations or controls but that's more due to hardware limitations.

The issue of Shenmue III is to be out of good ideas, not out of touch with modern gaming. You could've gave Ryo infinite stamina, have smooth controls, a skip button for tedious stuff, markers for quest. It'd remain the average game it is.

Shenmue III's issue is that its gameplay elements exists just for the sake of padding out. Just for the sake of gatekeeping or making sure the game doesn't end in 12 hours. They don't contribute, or rarely, to the game, the plot, the developpement of the world or its characters. It only serve a "game" purpose and even for that, it's not good.

 

[ShenSun]

I have to say, even though i really enjoyed Shenmue 3, you guys bring up some strong valid points.

I think Shenmue 3 is the Metal Gear Solid 5 of the series. I find the gameplay far superior to Shenmue 1 and even 2, but the story is lacking compared to the first two entries

 

[9dragons]

I have to say, even though i really enjoyed Shenmue 3, you guys bring up some strong valid points.

I weird in that regard. I can apply all the criticism these guys have about 3 to 1 and 2. I really fail to release the magic 1 and 2 had for these people. To me S3 will always going to Logical sucessor to S1 and 2. With the same pros and cons the old games had.

But tastes are different after all.

As I said I am new in this Shenmue Stuff. I never played Shenmue for the Story. There have been better story driven games than Shenmue out there in the last 20 years. I play Shenmue for the world, and the different cast of characters than your average game. It is fun to watch Ryo to interact with the world and the characters around him.

I was not expecting more story, because the story is not the reason why I like Shenmue.

Other fans here are more into the story, and do not like the random gameplay. They want the story to progress which I can understand as well. But for me the story is the least appealing part of the Shenmue experience.

 

[ShenSun]

I weird in that regard. I can apply all the criticism these guys have about 3 to 1 and 2. I really fail to release the magic 1 and 2 had for these people. To me S3 will always going to Logical sucessor to S1 and 2. With the same pros and cons the old games had.

But tastes are different after all.

As I said I am new in this Shenmue Stuff. I never played Shenmue for the Story. There have been better story driven games than Shenmue out there in the last 20 years. I play Shenmue for the world, and the different cast of characters than your average game. It is fun to watch Ryo to interact with the world and the characters around him.

I was not expecting more story, because the story is not the reason why I like Shenmue.

Other fans here are more into the story, and do not like the random gameplay. They want the story to progress which I can understand as well. But for me the story is the least appealing part of the Shenmue experience.

I hear ya. For me its a mixture of both. I do need a compelling story though. I think the issue and frustration comes from

1) we waited 20 years for some story progression and we didn't really get that

2) we don't know if there will be a shenmue 4, so we're extra frustrated that the story didn't progress too much

3) Most of us expected Shenmue 3 to be more about Ryo, Lan Di and the chiyou men. Its not though.

If anything Shenmue 3 is soley about Shenhua, her father and the relationship between Ryo and Shenhua and nothing else. We didn't expect that. in hindsight, it was obvious but hindsight is 20/20

The story criticisms you all mentioned is still very valid though regardless of my points.

If Suzuki manages to finish the story completely in game form, i think we'll all appreciate Shenmue 3 much more when looking back on everything

 

[9dragons]

Great thing about Shenmue is that you can enjoy for very different reasons. Some people are more in the story camp and others are more in the gameplay camp. I am more in the gameplay camp but I would lie if I say I am not interested to learn how the story ends.

It is still interesting although it follows the typical martial art movie tropes so far. Hero loses something, goes on a journey to get stronger and meet new People. It would be a small miracle if ends different than your typical martial arts movie. In the end hero gets strong enough to beat the cr**p out the villain, then goes home and lives a happy and peaceful long life.

Some some sort of dark revelation with the mirrors would be nice, and that Ryo has to sacrifice his or one others persons life to prevent the mystical chi you men demon (it was mentioned in s1 i believe) destroys the world.

But really doubt that Shenmue is getting that dark. So far it has been rather lighthearted.

I can understand that the people in the story camp are discontented though. Concerning the story s3 feels like a filler episode to speak in anime terms.

 

[shredingskin]

Looking from an only gameplay systems Shenmue 3 does have SOME advantages over S2 and (specially S1).
But then again, the combat is a matter of opinion (I preferred older games), the QTEs are lacking and not as well choreographed as the old ones (that basically you knew what button to touch before even the prompt came) the animations are the best ones in the whole S3 runtime.
But if 70% of the game is running around talking to characters, and the story is not as strong and the characters are uninteresting... it feels a lot less compelling to play.
It also seems to lack some of the game sequences the older games had (motorbike, forklift racing, catching leaves, punching trees, sneaking), even if S3 had 3 types of training, the repetition made them feel stale quite quick, while on the older games each of those set pieces felt like a nice change of pace.
But my opinion is looked through the glass of completing the game and feeling lacking in the narrative department (I loved the second to second game, even to rate it around 9, but when the game ended the taste was of "that's it?").